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Comment by 999900000999 | Hacker News Reader

Thank you for creating my favorite app framework.

That said, I literally only use Flutter as a hobbyist.

I made a basic web game for a friend, and a small web app that helps me manage my music lyric videos. I ultimately picked Flutter because I find it easier than actually building websites.

Dart is amazing.

But I'm not deploying to millions of users. At most 10 people have seen my Flutter apps.

It's VERY good for creating quick crud apps with Firebase.

Just counting the number of us who have it installed and might of spun up hello world says nothing about it's actual market share.

To be clear, I absolutely love Flutter, but it's still not something I really see job listings for.

Dart is great too BTW.

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on behalf of one of the Flutter founders, thank you for the thank yous.

I bet they'd mean a bit more if it wasn't coupled to a lengthy thinking-out-loud post that casts doubt on it, based on how many job listings you see, for something you don't look for job listings for.

Quick Google shows Dart 10th, right below SQL, right above Kotlin. https://www.devjobsscanner.com/blog/top-8-most-demanded-prog...

0.58% of jobs?

If you think its not popular until that increases past one of: JS, Python, Java, C#, PHP, C/C++, Ruby, Go, or SQL...I don't really know what to say. :)

Flutter in Kotlin instead of Dart would have killed! Alas. Hopefully, Kotlin Multi-Platform holds up as good as Flutter has (the rendering architecture based on Skia seems similar between the two frameworks).

Yes, I agree, trying to use Kotlin instead of Dart would have killed Flutter.

I've been hearing about Kotlin multiplatform just as long as flutter, and writing Kotlin since 2019.

Kotlin is a horrible daily driver.

I worked on Android for Google at 7 years, and maybe it'd have a better chance if it didn't win internally. As it stands, there's too many organizational boundaries created, and each organization holds itself accountable only within itself, so it's sort of the worst of all worlds, impedance mismatches everywhere, and nobodys fault they exist

I'm always stunned to read wish casting about Kotlin because there's ~0 path to even basic things that change productivity dramatically, like hot reload.

I'm going to be honest.

C# , NodeJS, Python and rarely Java( had a rough year), pay my bills.

Flutter/Dart doesn't. If you know someone hiring a Flutter developer I'm 100% down to interview.

I don't hate Kotlin, it feels like Google's answer to Swift( although Java was never as hard as Objective C). I even built a small project with it.

Can we at least agree it's weird Google is trying to promote 2 different languages for multiplatform development?

Let me compare Unity to Flutter for a bit. When Unity jobs are hard to come by, I'm still an OK C# dev.

Flutter/Dart doesn't offer they same freedom. Say what you want about Microsoft, but C# can essentially do anything. Including keeping me employed.

Only for the crowd, I need point out that no one's arguing there's more Dart jobs than C#.

Re: multiple frameworks, I worked at Google and would argue I know as much as anyone does exactly what happened there, so I can't agree it's weird, per se. Handwaving, I'd say that's because the situation seems more 'certain' or 'settled' to me, for good reasons, but ones not worth getting into.

There's absolutely tons of threads to unpack in your comment, I wish we were in person.

Speaking generally, based on observation you gravitated most towards discussing qualities of a job one might or might not get:

I essentially left my job at Google for no paycheck, partially because Google x Koyaanisqatsi, partially because I just couldn't imagine having to go back to write Kotlin and/or Java day to day and being criticized either way. That being said, it's deflating seeing Flutter job listings after getting into this whole industry from iOS dev. Thing with Flutter jobs is there's tons of low priced job seeking competition that are smart as hell.

That's because it is unusually effective in environments where people can't afford a Macbook only for iOS dev, and at this point in its lifecycle, it self selects for people who get experience with new frameworks

Do you personally dislike Java/Kotlin ?

Java just feels like a less refined C# to me, but I'd be fine with it if offered a FAANG job.

I've tried to learn C++ too since I think I'd open up some job opportunities, but it's just too hard for me.

So who won, Kotlin or Flutter ?

From your last paragraph, I take your prefer to work as a Flutter dev all else(pay) being equal?

They want both implementations to compete, and then they deprecate one of them.

Thats an excellent summary, and its fair for you to assume that question has been settled.

(On a serious note), inside Google you tend to get more easily promoted if you launch new products than if you maintain existing products, so it could be tempting for the employees themselves to follow in that direction.

Oh I'm aware (deep foreboding sad voice)

> I don't hate Kotlin, it feels like Google's answer to Swift

You have the wrong order: JetBrains created Kotlin[1], and anything Google had to do with it was just adopting their language. Same story for Gradle choosing it over Groovy

1: https://github.com/JetBrains/kotlin

> Can we at least agree it's weird Google is trying to promote 2 different languages for multiplatform development?

Google doesn’t promote anything. There are two competing teams with their own agendas. Flutter’s bills are mostly paid by internal usage, as far as I know. Android is mainly focused on Android part of Compose.

Multiplatform Compose, on the other hand, is mostly pushed by JetBrains to eat some of Flutter’s lunch and promote Kotlin usage to drive their IDE sales.

> Let me compare Unity to Flutter for a bit. When Unity jobs are hard to come by, I'm still an OK C# dev. Flutter/Dart doesn't offer they same freedom. Say what you want about Microsoft, but C# can essentially do anything. Including keeping me employed.

I might be wrong, as I’ve worked with .Net professionally, but I doubt you can jump from Senior Unity C# developer to Senior Asp.Net developer. Language is a small part in modern development.

>I might be wrong, as I’ve worked with .Net professionally, but I doubt you can jump from Senior Unity C# developer to Senior Asp.Net developer. Language is a small part in modern development.

I'm not exactly senior to senior, but I hopped from mid level hobbyist Unity dev to professional Unity dev , to mid level .net dev. I have a very specific niche though.

I'm very comfortable with my career.

>Multiplatform Compose, on the other hand, is mostly pushed by JetBrains to eat some of Flutter’s lunch and promote Kotlin usage to drive their IDE sales.

Android Studio is free ? Are they really making that much money off users using Kotlin outside of Android Studio ?

Android Studio is subsidized by Google and works pretty much only Android. The moment you have to work something more, e.g. some Web stuff you need to pay for IntelliJ Ultimate as it’s only IDE that supports Kotlin.

They even have Ktor (Kotlin web framework) plugin available only in Ultimate. For any non-trivial Kotlin development you need to have Ultimate.

> you need to pay for IntelliJ Ultimate as it’s only IDE that supports Kotlin.

That is so stunningly false that I am pretty sure I'm feeding the trolls: https://github.com/JetBrains/intellij-community/blob/idea/24... (Apache 2)

Right. Good luck developing Kotlin multiplatform, Ktor, Spring, anything web related or native with Intellij community.

There's no hot reload in Android (kotlin) dev? Wow

yeah, it fascinates me - both Apple and Google started these new UI framework things after Flutter, and both didn't land it, but instead, landed some half-baked thing where individual components can render live in the IDE.

That may sound more useful than it is: think "oh I can specify a dummy title and subtitle for a list view cell in code, then open a special pane in the ide to preview a source file, and then resize the window to imitate different screen sizes!", not, oh there's a bug, fix, save, insta-reload, verified fix. No holistic screens, or loading info from a database, or mutating data.

I assume this is an extremely hard problem. I remember trying to get Obj-C hot reload working 15 years ago and it kinda half-worked some of the time. And its not like I can edit the C++ my Flutter app is linking against and get instareload.

But still, it's one of the things thats easy to point out and drives home that these once-a-decade-or-two frameworks started in response to React Native/Flutter aren't addressing the fundamentals of what made them a sea change. Industry is risk averse and we make too many decisions similar to staying on track to launch MacOS 9.110 in 2024, instead of biting the bullet to get OS X done.

> both Apple and Google started these new UI framework things after Flutter, and both didn't land it

For Flutter to have fully landed it, it would take more than just hot reload. I'm not familiar with the latest but what are the chances of the Flutter rendering stack "going native" (as in not drawing to a Skia canvas or similar) on at least Chrome or Android? Or, is that the wrong question?

Yeah hot reload's just a one-off example that I think is the simplest way to relate the experience of SwiftUI vs. Compose vs. Flutter, though, the first two are long in the rear view mirror, I've been Flutter only for about a year.

Good question -- I don't think its the wrong question? Maybe? :P Tough to phrase on my end too.

I only feel native speaking in iOS or Flutter, even with the Android experience, forgive me: I guess I'd summarize it as "yeah, you're right. if you're wondering if they're ex. calling CoreGraphics on iOS, no" (well, they do, but for text rendering. Not for a red rectangle)

Generally, Flutter Web is rendering into a WebGL surface using Skia -> WASM (2.2 MB download! modern miracle). macOS, iOS, (done) Android (soon) are switching from Skia to Impeller. I think the thrust of your question is "are they still bundling the render engine?" and the answer is yes.

I find the way you phrased it intriguing, in that, before reading your post I'd say drawing to a Skia canvas is as native as you can get. But I realize now that means I was overindexing on "close to the metal", and its apex not-native to say "gimme the framebuffer and i'll take it from there"

I'm a bit picky with design stuff and I loooooove that Skia's bundled and I can rely on it cross platform

> Flutter in Kotlin instead of Dart would have killed!

Killed the framework for good, true. No pattern matching, joke destructuring, static delegation, reliance on Gradle (puke).

I don’t understand how Dart still has bad reputation when it leapfrogged this joke of a language long time ago.

Just seems like personal preferences. I've used languages with extensive pattern matching and don't feel like I'm missing out without them. Don't really see the problem with Gradle or Static Delegation either.

Then you won’t understand what made Flutter “click”. I work with Kotlin, Gradle and Compose on a day to day job and it is absolutely dreadful experience. Sure, it beats working with Java… Java 8.

Thanks for explaining your stance not a whit.

I was genuinely interested in your thoughts, "you wouldn't understand it, but trust me" is deeply unhelpful.

It’s more of a “too hard to translate all the frustrations that you encounter in day to day” rather than “trust me, bro”.

Glad you found it useful.

> I bet they'd mean a bit more if it wasn't coupled to a lengthy thinking-out-loud post that casts doubt on it, based on how many job listings you see, for something you don't look for job listings for.

Did you really just thank the guy for saying thanks, but give him a big fuck you in the same breath for not being a 100% kool-aid drinker?

Speechless.

Absolutely speechless. on behalf of one of the Flutter founders, he made all of them look bad.

I like to just think he's passionate.

My point was you just can't count SDK downloads as developers. Is every CI/CD pipeline a developer ? The founder of Flutter who posted that stat has a startup which is heavily invested in the perception of Flutter being popular.

In the Unity community we aren't afraid to critique Unity and even suggest trying other engines. Of course Unity isn't open source so you don't get articles like this where someone claims it's time to fork.

At the same time, Unity uses C#, so you can take your skills, and even some nuget packages( with a bit of work) elsewhere if you want to switch.

Flutter requires a higher time commitment since I have to learn a language that's exclusive to Flutter. If this ship goes down I can't use Dart with anything else.

Anyway, I think job postings are a much better metric of adoption. I like Flutter, I've used it for 4 years and I want it to succeed. I don't want to go back to react native!

No, I sarcastically thanked him for free-association about the # of job listings he sees for job listings he's not looking for and what that means about the language.

I'm guess I'm capable of being curious and engaging in conversation, beyond sitting in the bleachers grading everyone on my scale that at 100% is "koolaid drinker.", depending on if I feel like the things they're talking about are on Team A or Team B I've identified.

Then again, that perspective would sort of come naturally if I were reading hysterics into every comment I read. "Big fuck you" is textbook catastrophizing.

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