Can it store TOTPs and passkeys as well? These are two things encountered even by "regular people" more and more.
Especially keeping passkeys platform-independent is a huge advantage, in my view.
Especially keeping passkeys platform-independent is a huge advantage, in my view.
I would strongly advise using something like Aegis on Android, or Gnome Authenticator on desktop (or both). I like to duplicate/backup my seeds so that I'm not SOL if my phone breaks, but I do it by having them on my laptop, desktop, and phone. That way as long as I have one of the three devices, I can always get in, and then they're not "in the cloud." Though, "in the cloud" is still better than "in the cloud alongside all my passwords."
"Something you know"; "something you have"; "something you do"; "something you are [biometrics]"; "somewhere you are [geolocation]".
Passwords are in your head - "something you know".
TOTP codes are generated by a hardware token - "something you have".
If the TOTP codes are crammed into your password manager, then the factors are no longer distinguished by these qualities, but they're now the same factor, and it's not true MFA anymore, whether or not they're split up across devices, or apps.
Logging in through a password manager requires that you know a password (your master password), and have a file (your vault).
The whole point of a fully featured password manager like 1Password or Bitwarden is to rely on it instead of the security of the service you're using. And that implies that you must trust the security of the vault itself.
Of course, each device you have is an additional (an equally dangerous) attack surface. However, most people should be more worried if someone hacks into their devices than their Facebook accounts anyway.
Though, if you already have to have an app for the important stuff like your email, then IMHO it's actually simpler to just keep them all in one place even if you don't care too much about some of the tokens. Just one less thing you have to remember (i.e. where did I put service X's token again? was that in bitwarden or Aegis? etc).
The factors are:
- Something you know
- Something you have
- Something you are (biometrics)
I'm not talking about my password vault getting breached, in that case I'd be fucked either way.
But that's the whole point. If your password vault is breached, the second factor is what prevents you from being fucked. That's why putting your seeds in the vault is a reduction in security. It may be a reduction/risk that you're willing to take for convenience, but it's still a reduction.
"Something you know" (password) becomes "something you have" as soon as you store/autogenerate/rotate those passwords in a manager (which is highly recommended).
"Something you have" in the form of a hw key is still that device generating a key (password) that device/browser APIs convey to the service in the same way as any other password.
"Something you are" is a bit different due to the algorithms used to match biometric IDs but given that matching is less secure than cryptographic hash functions - this factor is only included in the list for convenience reasons.
The breakdown of this metaphor is one of the reasons passkeys are seen as a good thing.
I'm not saying I think everyone needs real 2FA. I think 99.999% of the time storing your 2FA codes in your PW manager, or just moving on to Passkeys, is the right answer. 2FA is a hack put in place to mitigate passwords being relatively insecure and phishable. It's supplanted by Passkeys.
My thumbprint isn't stored on my phone, so I have two factors.
From the PCI Security Standards supplement on MFA,
> The issue with authentication credentials embedded into the device is a potential loss of independence between factors—i.e., physical possession of the device can grant access to a secret (something you know) as well as a token (something you have) such as the device itself, or a certificate or software token stored or generated on the device. As such, independence of authentication factors is often accomplished through physical separation of the factors; however, highly robust and isolated execution environments (such as a Trusted Execution Environment [TEE], Secure Element [SE], and Trusted Platform Module [TPM]) may also be able to meet the independence requirements.
So your phone can constitute a token, while the biometric constitutes the second factor. I don't know about Apple phones, but Google's requirements for biometrics are:
> Capturing and recognizing your fingerprint must happen in a secure part of the hardware known as a Trusted Execution Environment (TEE).
> Hardware access must be limited to the TEE and protected by an SELinux policy.
> Fingerprint data must be secured within sensor hardware or trusted memory so that images of your fingerprint aren't accessible.
There are plenty of things for which a 2FA in PW manager is fine, but the most important things I think it's an unnecesary and regretful reduction in security. For example, email account. Email is the "forgot password" way to get access to almost everything, so it's worth a trifling inconvenience in having to load your 2FA into a different app. Same with things like AWS, Cloudflare, and other high-value targets. For the vast majority of people, keeping your Twitter seeds in your PW manager is fine, but it's foolish to do that with your email and other high-value targets, and IMHO if you're already going to have to have two apps, you might as well just standardize and keep the seeds in your authenticator app, and your passwords in your vault. YMMV
The person I was responding to was arguing that totp in pw manager is no good. Maybe you meant to reply to them and not me?
> I think 99.999% of the time storing your 2FA codes in your PW manager, or just moving on to Passkeys, is the right answer.
If you're storing your 2FA codes in your PW manager, then you're NOT using separate apps. You're using the same app (your PW manager). My argument is that you should use separate apps for the things that matter, like your email (which can be used to get access to almost every other account), and since you're already using separate apps for those things, you might as well just be consistent so you don't have to remember where each TOTP token is stored.
I see three levels we've discussed:
1. Pure 2FA using hardware token or equivalent (which I agree is rarely needed)
2. Impure 2FA but separate app for storing passwords and TOTP tokens (which I'm advocating for)
3. Storing TOTP tokens in PW manager (which you appear to be arguing for in 99.999% of cases, which is basically all of them)
If you are actually advocating for level 2, then we agree, but from reading your 2nd paragraph it seems pretty clearly to be arguing for level 3.
That's a pretty user-hostile attitude. Sure, some combinations of factors are pretty unergonomic, but I'd call that a bug, not a feature.
It's also incorrectly suggesting that somehow complexity/painful usability automatically yields security, while usually the opposite is true:
An effective secure authentication solution absolutely must consider usability, or it's doomed to be circumvented by users in one way or another (either via some insecure practice, or by your users simply ceasing to be your users).
It does obviously not protect against the scenario where someone is breaking into your password vault.
I tend to enable 2FA but conveniently save the token in the PW manager for relatively low equity stuff, just to make it less enticing for an attacker, but use hardware FIDO for everything actually important.
TOTP is trivially phishable via evil nginx just like your password, and via social engineering.
FIDO2 is not phishable and you have no secret to give out to social engineering attacks.
Is it? I've been on the Internet since the 80s and haven't been phished a single time (despite being the recipient of many obvious attempts). Maybe I could be phished, but I think that's evidence it's not trivial.
I have to wonder how many people sophisticated enough to use and pay for a password manager like Bitwarden could be "trivially" phished.
The phishability of TOTP really is exactly as bad as that of passwords, except that a once-phished TOTP isn't reusable by the attacker(s), unlike a phished password.
But even one-time access is often catastrophic, especially if it allows the attacker to rotate credentials.
(I do use Aegis as I like the UX but that's a separate topic)