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Comment by JKCalhoun | Hacker News Reader

As I get older, a gin and tonic (or two) is what makes air travel more relaxing.

Taking a flight as an opportunity to indulge in a moment of blissful idleness is great... on a three-hour flight.

But on a 14-hour trans-continental flight, you've gotta have something to do. If nothing else, to distract you from how uncomfortable it is to be effectively confined to your seat + a few feet of narrow walkway for that long. That's more confined than a prison cell!

Nah. I do Europe-Korea frequently, and I've definitely slowly settled into a happy optimum of sleeping 7-8 hours inbetween the meals.

Killing time is a rather slower flight experience than being unconscious.

I'm very happy WiFi continues to be an expensive opt-in product. If it was always-on, I'm sure I'd break the above habit.

Good for you. I can't sleep sitting on plane. The only times I've been able to to sleep is (1) getting a free upgrade to 1st class where I could lie down (2) a mostly empty plane where I could stretch out across three seats.

Like you, I cannot sleep on vehicles, but I used benzos on a recent flight, and it was like an instant time-skip forward during nighttime of the destination time zone, which helped with jet lag. Benzos are pretty terrible for you if used regularly, but if you have the self-control to limit your usage to a few long flights a year, it would be irrational not to take advantage of them. (I am not a doctor)

Benzos are my flight go-to. I got them for some flight anxiety, since my stupid brain started getting scared of flying, but boy do they just make the time go by and I manage to doze. It's not good quality, but it beats the total lack of sleep I'd customarily get.

Outside of flying, I have no temptation or desire to take them thankfully, so a prescription with ten pills lasts me literally years.

One word of caution there (aside from other dangers of benzos): I had a friend use them on a flight from the US to UK, and apparently was still obviously intoxicated from them when arriving, and got rejected at the border, put in a holding area, and sent back on the next flight. If going through a place where you'll actually have to talk with an immigration officer, not necessarily the smartest thing.

Wow what a nightmare. I try to time it so I'm lucid before landing, but that's a horror I hadn't even considered!

Why something so strong and not melatonin?

Real question, never tried any.

I am sorry, melatonin doesn't really do anything. It might give some the extra "kick" to fall asleep in a relaxed situation at home, but it definitely is not useful for "I need to go asleep while being pretty wound up" which is what people are talking here.

One not-oft-mentioned thing melatonin seems to do (at least in my own experience) is that it cancels out the effects of earlier-consumed caffeine in preventing sleep. So if you're overtired and awake only because of caffeine, melatonin will put you out pretty quickly.

Melatonin isn't a sleep drug. It's something your brain makes naturally at the end of the day when it gets dark etc. As I understand it, it's part of your bio clock and is not much more than your brain telling your body it's time to go to sleep. But if you're on a plane and you're nervous about flying, you won't fall asleep any more than in any other situation where you're nervous and not lying in your bed. You don't necessarily need something stronger, you need something different.

Why benzos over Ambien?

I am lucky to live in a state where marijuana is legal and basically had a THC candy before boarding a 14 hour flight to Sydney.

Slept like a baby with munchies being the only side effect

Like everything else, it's a skill you can train.

Not if you have a medical condition like sleep apnea.

I wish I could go to sleep on a plane. I’m someone who can sleep in most vehicles. Unfortunately it’s that same reason I can, which is why I shouldn’t.

You can use your CPAP machine with a external battery pack on airplanes. I do this regularly when flying long distances. In principle you should be able to also just plug in to the power sockets but for some reason this goes against most airlines policies.

Mine doesn’t support that.

The reason airlines don’t allow CPAP to be plugged in is because they don’t want people to suffocate if the power goes out in the cabin. But that’s just bonkers because CPAP masks have an escape valve for that purpose already.

In the end, I gave up arguing with the airlines and just keep myself busy on flights. It makes the travel much less comfortable but the one upside is I almost never have jet lag.

I couldn't sleep on planes my entire life until one year I did Europe-Korea 8 times and it became so routine it started working.

The routine part, I think, is what took the "I won't sleep on this long flight" anxiety away somehow, because I started learning the rhythm of the flight. For example, there is no point to try and sleep until the initial meal is served, you'll just get woken up anyway. So now I just spend that time thinking and daydreaming and being bored, then I quietly eat my meal but stop at feeling overly fully, and by the time it's over I start to get tired.

I also realized that a sleeping mask is a great aid for me (on the other hand, I don't need earplugs/earphones). This came as a great surprise, as I don't typically need darkness to sleep well, but something about the sensory deprivation in the plane setting seems to do the trick.

What I'm saying is, I used to describe myself as the "I don't sleep on planes" guy for a good decade, but then it started working; don't give up yet.

BTW, to give this a software dimension: I was recently on a flight with an airline I hadn't used before, and I really liked a UI in their in-flight infotainment that showed the entire flight as a timeline with all meaningful events penciled in (when the meals are, etc.) and a recommendation during which blocks to sleep. That was really nice and thoughtful.

> BTW, to give this a software dimension: I was recently on a flight with an airline I hadn't used before, and I really liked a UI in their in-flight infotainment that showed the entire flight as a timeline with all meaningful events penciled in (when the meals are, etc.) and a recommendation during which blocks to sleep. That was really nice and thoughtful.

Do you recall which airline this was? Given similar pricing, this seems like a useful differentiator that would sway my decision of which airline to pick.

Not sure why not mention the airline in the post directly. Is this some kind of avoiding advertising for the brand? Really curious. Can't be click bait or SEO on hn.

Ironically, probably just sleepiness - I was posting from bed with an infant that wakes up periodically. Sadly WiFi is not opt-in in my bedroom :-)

It was Finnair from Berlin to Seoul, via Helsinki.

Edit: I found a YouTube video showing a version of this feature from 8 years ago, but I think the one I saw was a bit more refined: https://youtu.be/5-CrsPAZslg - still, interesting that it's this old and I haven't seen it anywhere else.

Just curious how tall are you? At 6'3 I thought I'd never learn that skill.

There are many people that cannot sleep on planes so "just go to sleep" is not exactly a great response to people looking for entertainment.

This is me. I almost always try to sleep but am lucky to get 2h on a 20h flight.

With my CPAP need that's not going to work :(

Knowing nothing, I was curious (there's also an apnea comment). It seems travel CPAP and APAP (auto pressure) is a thing, but travel BiPAP (inhale/exhale pressures; required by some conditions) not so much. A recent reddit comments suggest non-existent (exhalation relief only). Most all need Heat Moisture Exchange plugs. Yet I noticed eg the Philips BiPAP Pro Bi-Flex, bit of a brick (1.5 kg; 2500 linear cm - but qualifies as a medical device), but its spec says ok for airlines w/o humidifier attachment. So I'm puzzled.

So airlines allow 2 batteries of up to 160Wh (with airline approval) and as many 100Wh batteries as you can carry [note: I have not actually tried to show up to the TSA security line with a suitcase full of 100Wh batteries, so your mileage may vary].

A BiPAP machine uses 50-150 Watts, according to a random Google query, so you're looking at somewhere between 500 and 1400 Wh of total storage to get your 9 hours of sleep on a plane.

So what you're looking for is (a) a way to daisychain these batteries together so that you don't need to wake up ever 40 minutes to 2 hours to swap batteries and (b) a way to plug in your BiPAP machine, if your battery packs are all USB-C and your BiPAP isn't.

Ehm this is not really accurate. Not many people use a BiPAP machine. They're only for very old people who have serious difficulties breathing. A BiPAP machine can serve a largely different pressure for exhaling and inhaling, a normal CPAP machine can only do that with about 2cmH2O difference which isn't a lot. But normal people have no issue exhaling against the output of a CPAP anyway so it's not a problem.

For this reason BiPAPs have much more beefy motors so they can ramp up and down quickly. Or perhaps two separate motors, I have never taken one apart (I have normal CPAPs which is basically just a pressure fan in a box with some regulation electronics)

But anyway my point is, a normal CPAP doesn't use that much power. It may use more than that if a humidifier is used (which is probably not a bad idea on a plane, but it requires distilled water which is an issue to bring on the plane in sufficient quantity). Because the humidifier is just a heater and heaters use lots of power.

I don't use a humidifier, my CPAP has a PSU of about 60W but I doubt it uses more than 20. The problem is more that they are not USB-C powered, nor are there official USB-C converters for it. I could probably construct one but bringing home-built electronics on a plane is probably not a great idea either.

So yeah I don't think this will be a great option tbh. If power is provided on the plane it would work but I've never seen this on my flights except in business/first.

Sorry, my bad - regional availability and cost were the challenge, not BiPAP-ness. A Luna TravelPAP looks 20 W max and there's a USB-C cord. Heat and humidity is separate - a disposable sponge.

Given 100Wh batteries, I've wondered if one could kludge a TSA-compatible carry-on electric mobility device, like skateboard wheels plus selfie sticks, as a one-bag travel scooter. My hungry laptop already needs several. Or carry a conversion kit for an "amazon, use, then give away" inexpensive manual kick scooter.

BiPAP is very very rare. It's only for very frail people that probably don't fly anyway. A BiPAP can lower the pressure considerably when the user exhales, that's why. They need power to ramp up/down quickly. Most people have a normal CPAP or an Auto CPAP. The auto mode is often used to determine the optimal pressure and then that is set to be fixed (because the ramping up/down of the auto mode can be annoying).

Travel CPAPs are a thing but you can't just buy one where I live. They're only supplied by the medical service here, and they don't do travel versions. It's not allowed to buy one yourself (and they're very expensive, around 700 bucks).

> you can't just buy one where I live [...] very expensive

Ah, ok. Tnx. I assumed availability(eg [1]), so with a $1k-ish cost similar-order to travel, I wandered off looking for other obstacles.

The HME plugs used with travel CPAPs instead of a humidifier, with calcium chloride foam to transfer heat and moisture from exhalation to inhalation, looked interesting tech with winter coming. But for day-ish replacement.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHSc1N0ervY

Oh yeah I can't stand humid air anyway, it makes me feel like choking. So I do without a humidifier even though I get nosebleeds in winter. I tend to rub some lip balm inside my nose and it alleviates it somewhat :P

And yeah the Resmed Airmini and Breez Z2 are the only ones I've seen for sale in my previous country (where it was legal to buy them personally if you have a prescription) but they added up to well over 1000 euros with the battery kit which for some weird reason is not included. For my country (medium-wage) that's pretty steep.

>But on a 14-hour trans-continental flight

Now you've got me wondering if that's even possible. Ankara to Singapore? Durban to Algiers?

Edit: to be clear, I was nitpicking "trans continental", ie., flights within the same continent.

Much of Europe to Japan, LAX to China or Australia, NYC to India or Japan (opposite directions). It's really quite common, you can check around by airport using this map with the duration filter set to 14+ https://www.flightconnections.com/flights-from-new-york-ewr

Yep, I live in Melbourne. It's the trans-continental bit I was querying.

Ah, good catch - I read right through that.

Auckland to London is about 23 hours.

Not in a single leg though, surely.

true … longest non stop is something like london to perth aus at 16 hours

You typically have to stop in LA, Singapore, or the UAE. The NZ -> Europe flights are brutal, and the trip back is typically even longer.

To add to a sibling comment: Thanks to the Ukraine war and having to fly around both Russia and Ukraine, this is many additional routes from Europe toward East now that used to be shorter.

Europe -> South America, the southernmost parts like Montevideo or Buenos Aires.

There are direct flights from Madrid that take around 13-14 hours.

Transcontinental means within a continent. Last time I checked Europe and South America are not the same continent.

Sorry, brain fart.

That would be intercontinental. Trans is across, inter is within.

Intra is within, as in intranet. Inter is accross or between, as in internet.

So transcontinental is accross the same continent. Intercontinental is between separate continents.

> a moment of blissful idleness

Popularly known as “raw dogging” or “barebacking” a flight, apparently.

https://www.gq.com/story/why-men-are-rawdogging-flights

Great example of people who are ignorant of slang, using it in inappropriate contexts.

Slang evolves.

slippery slang slingers

I would expect that the people who came up with this meaning know exactly what the original slang means, and did it intentionally. Though yeah, I'm sure there are people who use it who don't know what it really means.

I don't think that's what it means. Raw dogging a flight means staying awake while doing nothing.

I suppose most people that want to "raw dog" a flight will fall asleep eventually, so I guess there's that. But I think getting buzzed and just slipping into a bad nap for like 12 hours is a bit different, at least to my mind.

> I don't think that's what it means. Raw dogging a flight means staying awake while doing nothing.

That sounds an awful lot like idleness.

Yes... I think the trend of "raw dogging" a flight is a response to the constant need to do something - scroll through a phone, listen to a podcast, read the latest NYT story... Doing nothing, on the other hand, is pretty much what meditation is, which has been shown to provide a lot of amazing benefits for the brain.

Idleness is then just a religious (Protestant Christian?) spin on a perfectly normal thing, much like masturbation.

Got the screen right there, watch a random movie like the rest of the Hoi Poloi!

I think it's honestly a great moment for cultural leveling. There's always a couple classics in the machine. I (un)seriously judge people who feel the need to get Wifi access on flights so that they can just chat on Discord. You have an excuse to just watch a movie!

That and ear plugs with noise cancelling headphones and an eye mask and I can sleep through it all.

for me its rather ear plugs _without_ nc. the nc cancels out the droning of the engine and aerodynamics but it leaves conversations, music and crying babies. with simple earplugs the droning (which i don't mind) helps covering up voices. of course anc + random noise is the silver bullet.

I can't even do this at home, let alone in a semi-public place around strangers. Being blind and deaf makes me feel uneasy.

That’s what the gin and tonic step is for

Being 6'8" makes it very challenging due to no head support. I would love to come up with some kind of elastic harness rig that would also not be rejected by security protocols.

This, and watching nothing but the real-time flight map.

Helps for nodding off on the flight, too.

doesn't it depend on how long the flight is? the effect of alcohol is pleasant and relaxing for few hours. after that it gets me sleepless tired and my legs need to fidget more than otherwise.

go for a bloody Mary. the extra beta carotenoids are good for the skin under increased uv in high altitude. or so i tell myself.

veritasium made a video about airplanes and he specifically talks about tomato juice in planes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjDYfvPW4mA&t=908s

valeu por compartilhar.

good video. now i have two excuses for the flight bloody Mary.

a good pair of earbuds is what does it for me

I write this while on a United IAD-SFO direct (a bit over 5 hours), sipping a scotch on the rocks.

I've gotten the AVP demo at Apple HQ 3 times now, twice before release day. I really like it, can't imagine dropping $5000 of my own cash on it. Maybe for V2. I had a similar reaction to the Airpods Max. V2 is here. Meh. In this case, my boss has indicated we can get a few for testing, but the check's still in the mail. I have a certified-for-actual-flight-training VR system next to my desk at the office and have used that more than anyone else in the office that I'm aware of. So despite some of the most compelling, hard, spatial problems on Earth, medicine and national defense - everything from protein docking to casualty evacuation in contested environments, I'm hanging tight for now.

Cranberry and vodka but basically yeah

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