Life in India is a series of bilateral negotiations
strangeloopcanon.com
strangeloopcanon.com
- Driving at times has the element of game of chicken. Both parties begin with aggression and then someone (or both) gives in.
- Lot of scamming everywhere. You think twice, thrice before you make a move, especially if involves money.
- Give an inch, take a yard is the norm.
- If a rule can be bent, it will be bent. Everything ends up in brinkmanship.
(Lived in India for most of my life, but has worked in multiple countries in Europe and Asia and have visited the US)
It's actually quite similar for most in the Philippines. Yeah, there are some smaller cliques or sub-groups where this is frowned upon, but it is mostly also a "badge of honour".
- Vedic to pre-Islamic era - get oppressed by rajas and brahmins based on caste.
- Sultanate and Mughal era - get oppressed by Mughals, Afghans, Turkomans, Persians, etc.
- Colonial era - get oppressed by the British and their English-educated/paid lackeys
- Modern era - get oppressed by police and Sarkari government babus
Oppressing other peoples seems to be a part of Indian society, so any reversal of the roles should always be celebrated imo.
In the American Northeast, its still there but in finance related terminology.
It seems more like the "survival of the fittest" instinct in American/Western societies has evolved from overt competition to more sophisticated and hidden forms within financial and economic systems (blackmail too recently).
I guess the masses don't engage in it because the elites exert extraordinary amounts of power/culture. See Elon Musk, See the House of lords, etc. The negative pressure they create is to simply keep their power.
1. It's silly to talk about "India"'s culture. The cultural differences between Bangalore and New Delhi are as great or greater than any 2 nations in Europe. 2. India's formal institutions are terrible. The author seems to confuse the construction of infrastructure with the establishment of institutions. The formal institutions are the same or maybe even worse than they were pre-Modi, with the only caveat being that India has taken huge leaps digitally (India is at least 1-2 decades ahead of where the US is in terms of digital identity, digital commerce, etc) which might give the impression that the formal institutions have improved, when in reality the formal institutions are as poor as they were, but some of their terribleness is now constrained by technology. 3. The indian "informal institutions" or "culture" are largely a response to the poor formal institutions. The author asks why the "West" is able to follow traffic speed limits whereas India is not, ignoring the fact that in the US, for example, with the reduction in enforcement during and following the pandemic, speeding in the US has shot through the roof. Jumping red lights has also increased dramatically. The reason Indians don't follow traffic rules is the same as everyone else. A lack of enforcement.
Now, it's possible that after severe enforcement for an extended period of time the formal institutional value will modify culture enough that even if the enforcement is rolled back traffic speeds would continue to be followed, but India has never experienced that.
I won’t compare Indian city(Chennai where I was born) with most cities in US or most cities in Europe because they pale in comparison for people density. Just a wild comparison- take the touristy chaos of New York City - now, you see the pattern emerge on what happens if density gets higher - people stop following the rules, trash outside the bins, people becoming more self-centered and out for themselves, on guard for burglars, traffic chaos.. you get the point. It’s as if India is NYC on steroids _everywhere_.
When you have a 8 lane highway for the density of Europe and the US, sure following the rules is _easier_ and will become cultural over time. When you constantly have to fight for resources, it is the other way around. People get used to not following the rules because that is the only known way to get it to work.
It’s not straightforward as one can think..
https://countryeconomy.com/countries/compare/netherlands/ind...
It also seems to me that everyone in multi-ethnic Singapore tries hard to avoid any provocation, maybe because it wreak havoc during the 1960's.
Not that I appreciate a high population density or large population... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_Kohr#The_Breakdown_of_...
Anyone who has visited, would think India has all the ingredients to land up in a similar state.
But the big diff with the neighborhood is the sheer Size of the country, and the really wide range of economic activity in different parts of the country.
Its what we see in Nature, where there is as much chaos and incomprehensible stuff happening as there is in India. If you have a Large ecosystem, lots of different species and a lot of genetic variety, the better such systems handle constant change and unpredictable shocks.
And this feels like what has happened in India. One corner is imploding, while another corner becomes a leading global center of Leather Science or Jewellery Design. And this saves them from burning down like the neighborhood because they have more buffer.
Depending on which corner you are sitting in, the view of what is possible in India changes drastically.
Interesting, my outside view without any concrete data was that India is relatively unsafe.
Once a mob forms the victim of the crime usually ends up defending the pickpocket from a thrashing.
Rarely is there knife or gun violence as is reported from the UK or the US.
Even if this stat is inaccurate, it still shows India having plenty of violence and makes the claim dubious.
The only thing to me that's a bit crazy is the roads. My friend offered me a newspaper to read and the headlines were about a bus crash that killed a bunch of people (we were getting a bus that night). From what I understand, if there is an accident where someone gets injured, it's quite common for the other party to just drive off and leave them - which as a European is basically unheard of, unless someone is DUI and doesn't realise.
Murders, Rapes, kidnappings are the same in India. Unless you are at the wrong place at the wrong time or part of a targeted group (not necessarily gangs), you may not even know these happen. Traffic accidents are more common (and lack of a good emergency response system - like EMTs in the US, make it worse). Perry crimes of opportunity are everywhere. Like pickpockets or scamming people with higher prices/fake goods. But this is relatively easy to look for and avoid.
In my home state of Kerala, traffic violations on major roads are now enforced through AI cameras (https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/kerala/within-a-year-...)
A lot of it is automated and hand greasing is avoided, you would pay this online. This may be dramatically different in other states of India
Degree of politeness varies across states as well, Its a high tolerant society overall.
Places like Singapore are Aviation hubs (Hub-Spoke airline flights) , so someone making fun of BIAL being not at its standard is not even right (In terms of seating or capacity etc.). It is aesthetic showcasing a lot of local state culture (you will find it in a lot of airports). Again, you will not believe the cross section here, the Airport in Cochin is all sustainable through Solar and is Carbon negative ( one of the few in the world ).
Living in India is not as comparable as what it is in the West (or no where as safe as places like Japan), but then again , cultural shifts take generations , and so we hope :)
I'm from the (highly formal, rules-based) UK, but have lived most of my adult life in places with strong informal cultures. I find home incredibly rigid, inflexible and stifled compared to a lot of other places I've lived. So much "computer says no" and "not worth my job" in every interaction, incredible precision and planning required for the most basic things.
I'd stress this isn't necessarily just a government thing, there's a culture of unhelpfulness, restrictions imposed by insurance policies, a lack of communal responsibility, rent-seeking behaviors in privatised public space.
Not saying the opposite is necessarily better, but there are different modes of being outside our Western norms. When you get your head around the way things work, things can often be a hell of a lot easier day to day.
I personally think that by being very tepid about building strong institutions India is going to avoid a lot of expensive blunders because the lack of buy in curtails the ability of the institutions it does have to do dumb things or at least to do them thoroughly in the same way that a (smart) king who's kingdom is facing external threats doesn't usually kneecap the home front with bad policy.
While reading the article, I chuckled and laughed aloud at the ground truth, but it was written with a lighter perspective and good faith in things that are in India.
India is a complex amalgamation of so many different things thrown in. It is not just sides of a coin or something like that — it is the living beauty of the chaos of the chaos, with lots of serenity in various pockets and facades of life.
With this specific “negotiations” topic, I believe there is a missing angle, and I don’t know what term would suffice. But think like this: Watch out and forgive my small mistakes and naivete, and I will do the same when I see you doing it.
I second this. Regardless of how it is portrayed in the media, India is a high tolerance society. Most people would forgive mistakes and naivety.
But it must also be said that in the last decade the Politicians/Bureaucrats seem to have gotten their act together and things have actually improved though there is still a long way to go. As somebody who grew up in the 70s/80s and joined the workforce in the 90s things are far far better then what they were in all parameters. Given India's history/diversity/democracy there will always be problems but remember; "A rising tide lifts all boats".
PS : While the Politicians/Bureaucrats have been the curse of India, the Scientists/Engineers/Doctors are the ones who have kept its flag flying high. For an account in their own words see the two-volume The Mind of an Engineer by Purnendu Ghosh et al. and published by Springer.
A little stick is what India needs. People doing stuff like driving their motorcycle on the footpath aka sidewalk, will stop doing it if you offer just a touch of resistance and just stand there. It isn’t the US where you have small but real chance of being shot (at least in southern India, bihar etc might be exception)
Same with jumping the que, calling people out generally does the trick.
Some problems are more complex but a little more stick in India would make some solid improvements in everyday life.
Its biggest flaw is noticeable, even in the photo on the article - there’s very little seating and only large open spaces (often with lots of greenery and woodwork). The net result is that you get the same sight as every Indian railway station - passengers sitting on the floor.
Vendors expect customer to haggle, so they inflate sometimes as high as 100%. Customers know vendors inflate, so they start haggling right away. vendors get to sold at a desired price, buyer walks away thinking, they got a deal.
kids try to negotiate their punishments, i negotiated a bribe with a traffic cop once.
When haggling is expected and one party doesn't engage, the other party gets frustrated and try to walk away.
There are some pockets of activities where no-haggling is preferred choice. Like branded goods (clothes, travel, automobile), high end real estate. people who are not good at negotiations prefer these options.
I purchased a house from a builder, who is notorious for not engaging in negotiations. I was happy with purchase because i know i got same deal as everyone else and did not lose anything.