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You totally get it! So many underappreciated little details

I'm giving a talk this week specifically about microwave oven UI:

[1] https://ndcporto.com/agenda/a-history-of-knobs-on-microwaves...

I'm pretty sure Breville UI was the original reason I went down this rabbit hole haha

You may be interested in some of America's Test Kitchen observation in their review:

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IRAi6Nzxbk

"Who needs extra buttons labelled things like 'Kids Meals', 'Healthy Cooking', or 'Snack'? What does that even mean?"

Later in this review they briefly praise and point at those same preset buttons.

Many ATK reviews resemble fortune telling more than actual reviews. They aren't all that helpful and you use your confirmation bias to cherry pick whatever you want to hear. Their specific model recommendations also tend to drive sales to the point of unavailability or price gouging.

It's interesting how cultural that must be. Here in Germany most mainstream cheap microwaves in the last decades still have electromechanical knobs, one for selecting power, one for time. If forced to draw a microwave out of memory that is my canonical mental image – and I didn’t had a microwave the last 15 years.

Basic Example: https://www.bosch-home.com/de/de/product/kochen-backen/mikro...

Until this article I had no idea what US-Americans were (rightfully) bitching about.

(Edit: Oh, I see, the cheaper Bosch Microwave range has capacitive buttons. Erghs.)

As a US-American who occasionally shops for appliances, I can confidently say that you cannot easily buy a microwave in the US with knobs for any price. The vast majority of appliances these days still use resistive or pressure-sensitive panels. And I hate them. They sure LOOK like buttons but when you press them, there is no actuation feedback, knowing how hard to press is a guessing game, and often you have to press so hard that you fear breaking the panel. (Let's not even talk about how little thought goes into what the buttons actually do.)

Plus, the plastic panel eventually cracks over the most-used buttons. Built-in obsolecence.

If you want capacitive buttons, you generally have to climb a few tiers up the pricing ladder. But they don't advertise this as a feature, which means you have to see/use the microwave in person to know for sure that's what you're getting.

ALL appliances in the US are terrible in some way or another. Either they are cheaply-made chinese garbage that are frustrating to use and break in 5 years, or they cost as much as a brand-new low-end car. Sometimes even both!

That’s supposed to be a “cheap microwave?” Here in the U.S., the aisles are full of microwaves (with touch-sensitive buttons only) at around $30-$70. Once you get above $100 you do sometimes start seeing some with knobs of some sort.

In my experience buying microwaves in Northern’s Europe it’s the cheap ones that have a straight forward interface with simple knobs and the expensive ones that doesn’t.

I guess the complicated interface is both more expensive to built and looks more impressive so you add it to higher end machines.

I also love the Breville UI.

Unfortunately, my mother who is blind has a hard time with it. I gave her my Breville when her old microwave broke. The knobs on the Breville don’t give any feedback about their value as it changes. They also rotate infinitely, making it hard to guess from context clues. The UI is just not accessible.

On a regular microwave, she can either feel the buttons or someone can put adhesive landmarks on the number 5 and the start button and she can figure out the rest. And as each button is pressed, the microwave will beep, confirming the value has actually changed.

The best UI will be accessible and embody universal design, making the experience better for everyone. I think Breville is on the right track, but they should keep working on it.

> The best UI will be accessible and embody universal design, making the experience better for everyone.

That is a beautiful goal but I think that ultimately different disabilities have incompatible goals, and that the engineering costs matter too.

All design forces compromises: what is better for one protected group is often worse for another protected group. Obviously a display is absolutely useless to blind users - so do we decide to have displays or not? There's always more than one approach.

My mum had heaps of usability issues in her home and generally it took plenty of effort on my part to find a solution that was accessible for her limited strength and limited movement. The New Zealand government helped but there were plenty of issues it never helped with. I imagine it would be really hard to attempt to support someone with various levels of mental health degradation. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39749581

Yeah, I too dislike jog knobs but they are a design compromise.

In my experience the majority of consumers fail to select designs that have good usability. There seems to be little economic incentive for manufacturers to develop products with better UI design.

I wish we lived in a perfect world with unlimited resources to support our blind, our elderly, and others with complex needs.

>> it has a well designed UI unlike virtually all microwaves (except the cheap 80s ones with a mechanical timer knob).

Growing up we had a Sharp Carousel microwave, a dial for the timer and a slider for power.

Nowadays they're all different. If you hit the number '1', does it automatically start a 1 minute timer, or can you enter 1:30?

Do I have to hit cook, or time before I can enter a time? If I hit start does it automatically add 30 seconds?

The other thing is I can remember those things were $400 in 1982 dollars, bought I recently bought a pretty nice $80 1100 watt Hamilton Beach microwave at the local big box store. I doubt it will last 30+ years, though.

When is 90 greater than 100? On a microwave. 90 means 1.5 minutes while 100 means 1 minute, not 1.6 minutes.

It's the most basic of UI/UX WTFs

Also in JavaScript:

> [90, 100].sort()

User testing proves it isn't a WTF, it is great UI. Nobody thinks about or even questions that it works that way when using a microwave, and most when told about it for the first time have to think for a long time to realize that weirdness happens.

Of course move of Microwave UI is badly done garbage (a knob is better), but the 100 is less than 90 is one of those places where the UI got it right.

I'm not seeing how that's much of a WTF. When specifying a time duration or interval, you aren't bound to < 60 seconds like you are when interpreting the time on a clock. I think everyone understands this.

Lots of recipes and heating instructions on food packaging use cooking durations in seconds or minutes >= 60. "90 seconds" is easier to read and understand than "1 minute 30 seconds."

And besides, what else is '9-0-Start' supposed to mean to a microwave? The alternative is to just show an error, which would be a far worse UX than just assuming (with high accuracy) that the user meant 90 seconds.

>> 2015: Breville makes a beautiful microwave oven with "a bit more".

> It really is better - it has a well designed UI unlike virtually all microwaves (except the cheap 80s ones with a mechanical timer knob).

America's Test Kitchen did some testing and the Breville was their top pick:

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IRAi6Nzxbk

They remark on how confusing the UI is on other units ("Who needs extra buttons labelled things like 'Kids Meals', 'Healthy Cooking', or 'Snack'? What does that even mean?")

> two knobs are digital spinner knobs

Ahh, nice, talking about inaccessible household items. The number of products I am able to buy is decreasing with every year, being blind and all that...

However, in this special case, I am really not missing out. If there is one thing I will never buy, thats a microwave. Stuff made in it tastes awful, and even water for tea sucks out of the wave thingy.

I tried to make our SaaS accessible to the blind for two of our users.

I spend two months trying to understand the user agents for blind users and the HTML attributes: but ultimately I gave up without achieving anything noticeable. This was for a small business (6 employees and I was one of the 4 co-founders).

How were we to choose the right compromise between the cost in hours to me personally versus the cost in hours to our blind users?

Is a blind user's hour more valuable than an hour of mine?

What about the huge number of other users that missed out on usability improvements because I was trying to support our blind users?

This was for a custom framework because I started building it in 2006 (when jQuery was king and no component framework had much market). Therefore hiring outside help was not going to be simple for such an intersection of highly specialised skills. Moreover a similar compromise needs to be made. How many dollars should it cost us as owners? Resources are not endless.

I still struggle with trying to find the right answer to competing deserving needs.

I have a little appreciation for accessibility because I was constantly trying to find solutions for my elderly mother (she was very clued up, but physically limited).

This comment mentions basic Bosch microwaves in Germany with an interface that could work for the blind (one power knob, one timer knob): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41848689

The microwave UI I really like is sharps small commercial microwave. One control to set the time. It is like perfection in UI design.

https://shop.sharpusa.com/medium-duty-commercial-microwave-o...

"Perfection is reached, not when there is no longer anything to add, but when there is no longer anything to take away."

-- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Some people really hate to give up their power control, which is understandable, however I note that I never use the power control on my microwave and could easily do without it.

I use the power setting to soften butter without melting it.

I love those cheap old ones with a simple timer knob… unfortunately most lacked a rotating plate which is a pretty essential feature.

I’m hoping there is a new trend for devices to have a simple mechanical switch or dial for controlling things. I switched out a fancy programmable home thermostat that had a UI which requires reading the manual to make simple adjustments, for one with a single temperature knob. Friends and family would comment that I need to “upgrade it” when visiting, and were dumbfounded when I explained I had actually spent money and time to do the exact opposite.

> lacked a rotating plate which is a pretty essential feature.

They are not essential. You can buy new and professional microwave ovens without them. There can be other ways to help distribute heat.

I hope we get a return to basic tactile switched devices. A friend has a basic coffee maker with one giant switch. My microwave has two knobs.

Sure, keyboards, buttons, and screens on computers also aren't essential, you can still buy brand new computers that are programmed by hard wiring your program into a plugboard ( https://the-analog-thing.org )- but in both cases I think the utility is so reduced there are much fewer use cases where they are even worth having.

80% of my microwave cooking is just hitting the big "Auto" button and letting the microwave figure it out

10% is picking an automatic defrost program (e.g. minced meat) and letting it figure it out

The last 10% is hitting the Manual button and dialing in a time (for prepackaged food with a specific time written on it)

Manually selecting a power level is so far out of my microwave usage pattern it's really weird to imagine needing it.

I'd love to find an in-wall microwave with that UI. I had an '80s Amana Radarange as a kid, and it too had a knob for time, a knob for power, and buttons for start/stop. Every microwave I've used since then has been a disappointment.

The Electrolux I have today not only has a bad UI, but it has to be periodically rebooted because the display stops working.

> '80s Amana Radarange

That's a bold choice in product naming. Referencing radiation in any manner just seems like something you'd want to avoid

There was a period in history in the US where referencing radiation made it cool and futuristic.

I would have imagined that it mostly had died out by the 80s though. More like 1950s and what not.

I'm sure that fascination with radiation being cool took a nose dive after the Manhattan Project completed

Think you've got that reversed. The Manhattan Project kicked off the Atomic Age, and sentiments were largely positive until the height of the Cold War.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_Age

https://dp.la/primary-source-sets/the-atomic-bomb-and-the-nu...

It is not referencing ionizing radiation: it's referring to "RADAR" which was common early marketing for microwaves.

Now, microwave emissions are "radiation" in the scientific sense, but not colloquially.

I have a different one, but they do exist and they're among the cheapest to buy:

https://www.castorama.fr/micro-ondes-encastrable-cooke-lewis...

He's how my microwave oven works

Rotate knob to select power oven or microwave

Press in knob to select.

Rotate knob to select preheat or not.

press in knob to select

Rotate knob to select temperature.

Press in knob.

Rotate knob to select one tray or two

Press in knob to start.

BONUS: the knob's encoder isn't great so if you spin it too fast is goes backwards.

A few more buttons would've made this thing so much easier to use and the oven itself is actually quite good.

I would have lost interest and wandered off by about step 3 of that process.

Is it possible to mute it?

I have found the touch screen interface bothers me a lot less when everything is silent. Our microwave is permanently muted. No beep on button presses, no beeping when it is done. Just blissful silence other than the humming of the mechanism itself.

My parents absolutely hate beeps so I often open up the appliance and look for the beeper on the circuit board and physically remove the beeper.

So far I've always been able to use side-cutters to cut the beeper leads because the beeper has been a through-hole device. I guess some modern PCBs you would need to desolder the beeper.

Obviously only if you don't have to worry about warrantee.

You also need to have a smidgen of technical ability to not cause other unforeseen problems.

I'm sure there will be YouTubes and articles on what to look for and what to do.

>specialty buttons still exist but are just inside the door so not visible unless you want to use them

INCLUDING SILENT BUTTON + higher end inverter models being significantly quietter makes it such a QoL upgrade.