Studies suggest a drug-free nasal spray could ward off respiratory infections | Hacker News Reader

Studies suggest a drug-free nasal spray could ward off respiratory infections

medicalxpress.com

133 pointsPaulHoule106 comments

I use a similar nasal spray for allergies (Becodefence). Basically a physical barrier coating the nasal passages. For me and my allergies, it's super effective.

Never thought about using it to block viral infections, but it makes sense: coating the nasal passages with artificial "mucus-like substance" so particles don't reach the membranes. Makes total sense that approach also work for viruses.

A couple of decades ago, I was on a commercial aircraft and sat next to a man who occasionally puffed something into his nostrils. It turned out that he was a researcher at Ft. Detrick, and he explained that keeping your nasal passages moist with saline spray helped to keep out germs. I’ve been using saline sprays ever since!

An interesting thing to consider, is that face masks act as humidifiers for nasal passages.

When I first started doing cardio, my nose would dry out (mouth breathing should be avoided) to the point of being painful so I’d put on an N95 mask to retain humidity. Was a great help, though I no longer need it though.

I use an evaporative wick humidifier in my room (a Vornado Evap40). And it’s made a big quality of life improvement as well. Keeps me from waking up at night with painfully dry nasal passages.

Some tips:

* Never use ultrasonic humidifiers, those aerosolize the bacteria that inevitably grows in water, along with the minerals which can coat surfaces.

* I also recommend getting the largest capacity tanks you can find for less refilling, and looking for a fan that’s large and quiet.

* Keep humidity below 60%. (I set my cutoff to about 57%). Above this things start to feel damp, and mold growth start to become possible, especially in localized areas.

* The wick type humidifiers do have wicks as a maintenance item, I generally replace the every 1.5-2 months about, sanitizing the whole unit at the same time. Curiously, if you let them dry out, even if still pretty new, they’ll smell bad.

* The glug sounds from the water releasing from the tanks can be disturbing for a bit if you are sensitive to sounds. You do get used to it eventually. I also have a big air filter always running that provides nice white noise that that helps buffer the sudden glug noise. The only alternative really is to rig a waterline and something that can meter water into the humidifier basin without risk of failing to stop and flooding your room.

That’s one of the leading explanations for why flu outbreaks are seasonal. Years ago I was rather surprised to realize that we kinda just don’t know.

That, I am afraid, sounds like utter BS. Consider the mechanical action at play here. (If you will delve into gross sticky nose stuff.)

First, nasal mucus is thicker, more viscous than saline spray. It's produced in normal quantities by healthy people, but that production increases when infections or allergies happen, naturally.

By diluting mucus, and making it runny and watery, you're going to defeat its purpose, which is to trap various debris as you inhale, and stop it penetrating further into the nose and body.

So now your mucus defenses are down, yet you've got a little puffer in hand, constantly forcing saline upwards into the nose, more powerfully than simple inhalations. That very upwards and inwards motion is going to force stuff into your body that didn't want to go there, including germs!

It's absolutely counterproductive and sounds like quackery.

Now, if you already detected irritation or allergies based on foreign objects or germs, for example by discolored or thickened mucus, or more than usual, and then you proceed to carefully flush your passages with saline, Neti pot style, allowing it to drain away and out of the nose and sinuses, that would be somewhat effect, but you'd need to be careflu that you're not forcing it inwards. I mean, that is exactly what a runny nose is for during a cold. Don't thwart a runny nose, just clean it away regularly and work with those natural defenses! UGH! (For that matter, don't aggressively attack mild fevers, because fevers are part of an immune response, not the lethal brain-cooking threat we all fear.)

I wonder if this military researcher was consciously aware that he was spreading misinformation to ordinary civilians... hmm

Airplanes bleed external air from the engines into the cabin, which leads to an extremely dry environment. Possibly dry enough to harden and crack mucus. Or perhaps in dry environments the body just decides not to waste water on mucus generation. I have no idea.

This sounds science-y.

In fact, I use NeilMed, a commercial saline & bicarb powder together with distilled water, and I know from past exchanges on HN that lots of others here do, too. My own doctor said it was fine and lots of her patients do it. The solution runs out the other nostril, which is gross so you do it in private.

I have very few colds, allergies, or sinus infections since starting it, although it doesn't eliminate them all.

This Fort Detrick guy, though... that might be misinformation. I use the spray once a day, twice if I have a cold. Definitely not constantly.

> The solution runs out the other nostril

Exactly the key for this treatment, indeed.

Sure, in many applications, such as congestion where you can't breathe, you'd need to break up the mucus and eliminate it, without snarfing it in. Your solution sounds wonderful for doing just that.

I happen to sport a full beard, and I'm rather pleased with zero coronavirus infections in five years, not to mention a low incidence of colds and influenzas. A beard represents a man's unique natural defenses against all enemies, foreign and domestic, of the respiratory and digestive systems. Oiling, cleaning, and combing the beard are integral parts of that defense.

But, simply Use As Directed, because as we've seen with talc, oxygen, and religion, if/when people misuse/overuse them, turns into cancer...

I should have mentioned that sometimes afterwards, some solution drips out of your nose when you incline your head forward. Super-embarrassing.

I wonder if there is something like this in the US? As an kidney transplant patient with immunosuppression, I've been super cautious to being in crowds without a mask.

I feel like something like this might give me more reassurance if I'm meeting friends and family at parties and events without a mask.

From the studies I read, xylitol and saline was effective. One such product is called Xlear in the US.

It sounds like Becodefence also has a nasal steroid? If so, possibly combine with something like Flonase/fluticasone?

Beclometasone nasal spray is what you're looking for. It's sort of expensive ... looks like $250-$350 per package.

You can get fluticasone much cheaper, it's also a nasal steroid.

It also gets higher ratings on https://www.drugs.com/compare/beclomethasone-vs-fluticasone for whatever that's worth.

Beclometasone is very cheap in the UK at least. Very surprised to hear that price?!

Does it affect the sense of smell?

And, an artificial mucus makes me wonder if one feels as if they constantly need to blow their nose?

Still, neat.

That was my first thought, sounds uncomfortable. Hopefully you'd just get used it though and to be fair, it's definitely less uncomfortable than dying from preventable diseases.

Interesting! What are the sensations / side effects?

Any reason this spray in particular?

Thoughts on Vicks First Defence, Lemsip First Action, etc.?

I will admit to following the swab-nose-with-neosporin protocol following a previous mouse study with similar results. I use this during travel and have had no short terms ill effects and caught no infections while following it. (Not a doctor, not well controlled, just a random internet guy).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/research/coronavirus/publicatio...

That also sounds like a recipe for inducing antibiotic resistance in the staph in your nose.

I'm busy so I didn't read the paper - is there a reason to use neosporin instead of petroleum jelly? In addition to your concern, many people are actively allergic to the ingredients in neosporin.

yes, really, don't do it. it's a danger not only to yourself, but to others as well.

You think putting neosporin in your nose a few times will get someone infected with antibiotic resistant staph?

Not one individual, but if millions of people do it across the population...

Millions of people already do it across the population.

I wouldn’t do that. All sorts of stuff will permanently kill your sense of smell.

One common one (this keeps getting reinvented, then banned in the us) is zinc nasal spray.

Zinc lozenges seem fine. Both are effective at shortening colds.

Only if it's zinc acetate, which is rare!

I already lost my sense of smell after having a surgery for deviated septum where they removed some tissue.

I will admit to following no protocol at all with similar results. I do nothing during travel and have no short term ill effects and caught no infections.

Probably best not to do that. Neosporin is somewhat infamous for causing allergic reactions and repeated use increases the chances of getting an allergy to it.

From the study, to your point:

> To assess the translational potential of the intranasal neomycin approach in humans, we conducted a small pilot randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study involving healthy human participants.

> For the experimental arm (n = 12) > For the placebo arm (n = 7)

> One out of 21 participants experienced signs of an adverse event after 2 doses which self-resolved after a few days and self-withdrew from the study early. Upon examination of their medical record, it was found that the participant had a history of allergic reactions to various medications (not specific to study drug). Another participant’s nasal samples could not be used due to technical issues. All other 19 participants tolerated the treatment well and did not experience any adverse events from the study.

This is a good point! I've got a few decades of tolerating neosporin for normal uses so wasn't overly concerned.

Why not use an N95 mask? I use it on movie theaters, subways and airplanes.

A single virion of SARS-COV-2 is about 125nm. Approximately the same size as a single particle of smoke. N95 masks are supposed to be 95% effective for particle sizes 100-300nm in size. It also means that 5% get through.

Not sure about RSV (and its variants) or flu A/B.

My assumption about N95 masks is that they are used to effectively reduce the initial viral load and act as a first line of defense but are not a sole preventative measure.

It goes both ways too. If you have symptoms it makes sense to wear an N95 if only to reduce the amount of virion you are sharing.

FWIW, sanitation is every bit as important as wearing an N95 mask in movie theaters, on subways, or on airplanes. Rule of thumb is to be ever-vigilant.

My understanding is that there’s a minimum threshold for viral load to evolve into symptoms.

You won’t get an infection from 100 viruses, but you may from 1 million.

A higher viral load means a better start for the infection. If you get a limited viral load, you give your immune system enough time to deal with it without major damage. But even asymptomatic COVID-19 leads to permanent injury, so, maybe it's better to get a massive infection and build a better resistance than many small-grade infection and accumulate enough damage without building a good enough natural defense.

Yes, mask first, this is a second line of defense. (Again, maybe, could do nothing or be harmful)

For COVID-19, only N99/FFP3 are effective. People don't grasp the basic math that a N99 mask is NOT just 4% better than a N95 one, it's 5 times better!

Mice != Humans

Or .. you could use salt spray .. the kind of designed for kids. Its just salt and water.

I stopped using other kinds of spray since discovering that it fixes my sinus infections in a matter of a day or two.

Same here. I find saline sprays and saline netipot solutions to be very effective at preventing infections of taking hold.

If you want to boost the effectiveness I’ve found a few drops op goldenseal extract also helps. It contains Berberine which is a mild antibacterial.

Yeah; my doctor recommends neilmed sinus rinse, in the little squirt bottle and powder packet form factor. I keep a gallon of distilled water in the bathroom. Problem solved. (Avoid the maximum strength formulation unless you want to use osmotic pressure to reduce swelling — ouch!)

If you go for the carbonated mist spray stuff, note that you get a lot less volume of water per dose, so it’s a bit less reliable (but much more convenient since you don’t need to worry about sterilizing anything).

Regarding the article: Unless you’re using this when completely symptom free (or have some condition where your sinuses are chronically dry), there’s probably already more crap in your sinuses than you need. I’m skeptical of this new technology.

That's it exactly for me. Squirt bottle seems more effective than Neti pot, just because there's some force in the water.

You DO need the powder, though; otherwise the water burns like hell.

On the other hand, don't think you can get away without the salt packet either. I think that's worse than too much salt.

Any information about nettie pot vs the squirt bottle you use?

The pressure of a squirt bottle can make it go all up in the sinuses behind your eyes which is really painful when all you prob want is for it to take the short passage to the other nostril. Happened to me the last time I used it and it hurt for an hour, granted I'm always too lazy to dissolve the salt which apparently makes it hurt less.

I never had that problem with a neti pot since gravity can't apply as much pressure. So you're forced to be patient when it's especially blocked up.

Gravity vs. active pressure.

When I read about something like this, my first thought is always, is this something we could have evolved ourselves? And if so, what haven’t we? Thicker mucus seems like something we have evolved, so was there some survival trade-off, perhaps in terms of general quality of respiration, that meant we didn’t?

I forgot what scientist said this but “survival of the fittest” is a misnomer and it’s more about straight up surviving. You need to have tolerable constant pressure for evolutionary traits to propagate. Also, its very possible we already developed thicker mucus than our ancestors millenniums ago.

It is not so long ago since we are exposed to so many different viruses. I think way to less time for evolution to be effective.

Our ancestors a few thousand years ago still lived in largely isolated, at least not as extremely mobile and transcontinental communities as we do. And in terms of the number of generations, that is so few that we can say we are at the very beginning of an evolutionary development .

61 million years ago, a branch of the mammalian family tree had a gene break, called GLO. Since then, those mammals have been unable to synthesize Vitamin C. That branch includes humans.

There's no upside to this. Vitamin C is crucial, it isn't especially easy to get sometimes, and it would most definitely improve survival. We just... can't make it. That's all.

"There's no upside to this."

Of course there is an upside to this.

We may not value that upside and we may not ever learn what it is but ALL traits have both benefits and costs.

While I doubt that’s true in general, I could fantasise that this somehow, in a roundabout way, contributed to our intelligence because it may have increased selection for better vision, pattern matching etc. to gather (edible) fruit.

Evolution isn't nearly as perfect as you think it may be.

For an example, check your feet.

I’m looking at them, they’re nice.. be more specific?

Routing the plantar nerve around a bunch of ligaments that swell with use seems like a pretty horrible idea, for one!

Yeah, our legs and feet provide a pretty sweet and effective kinetic chain. What's not to love.

They start to hurt around year fifty.

Hard to blame evolution for that given that reproduction is much rarer after age 50.

It's a lot easier to take care of your grandchildren if you can move without pain, but I thought the whole point of this conversation was arguments as to why evolution is not as perfect as one might think.

For most of human evolution, wouldn’t 50 be incredibly old to become a grandparent?

I can imagine this (and thicker mucus in general) negatively affecting olfaction, which is pretty important for survival.

We have lots of defenses. Unfortunately viruses evolve a lot faster than we do.

And our immune systems evolved before we had airplanes.

Such spray [0] has been on the market by multiple brands and is backed by studies [1]. It has a throat spray and lozenges, too. There are some other patented variants with a different type of carrageenan.

[0]: https://www.carragelose.com/

[1]: https://www.carragelose.com/en/publications

There was at least one study during the pandemic that showed efficacy of these things. The problem for studies is knowing exactly how much they're used. I've used the Boots version in the UK for a long time on the basis that there's half decent evidence that it's effective and the only real side effect is on my wallet. It would be great to see a challenge study of these things but I'm going to keep using them regardless.

One study during the pandemic which showed efficacy which could control for use by targeting healthcare workers in their workplace: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8493111/

Strangely, Boots is not mentioned [0] by Carragelose even though they say they contain it.

[0]: https://www.carragelose.com/en/portfolio/launched-products

It's interesting that Boots [0] recommends it only for treatment, not for prevention.

[0]: https://www.boots.com/boots-dual-defence-nasal-spray-20ml-10...

Carragelose now is used as eye drops [0] as well!

[0]: https://www.carragelose.com/en/portfolio/common-cold-product...

I remember reading a while back that your eye is actually a big vector for getting viruses. We all touch surfaces and then touch our face and eyes a lot more than we realise.

Since COVID I wonder if these studies were reproduced.

We had a lot of talking point about why masks won't work were backed by these "people touch their face dozens of time every hour" kind of results, it felt completely absurd but there wasn't anyone going to redo them with strict control in the middle of a pandemic either. But now we could.

This reminds me of this absolutely fantastic podcast episode by Adam Savage (of Mythbusters fame): https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MzzD2F73iGU

I do a povodone/saline nasal spray rinse when flying. Then use my navage to clear out my sinuses when I arrive at my destination. Can't tell you if it works, but I historically have gotten sick when I travel and I've noticed a reduction in getting sick since I started this protocol.

Vitamin D daily may provide protection from viruses and skin cancers. https://scitechdaily.com/study-finds-vitamin-d3-important-fo...

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36580363/

> PCANS nasal spray could effectively block infection from an influenza virus (PR8) at 25 times the lethal dose

A certain amount of influenza virus acts as a toxin and just kills you?

The paper says that 100% of the control group died. (This is a mouse model and a virus specifically selected to be deadly.)

So, not "toxic", and not the usual LD50 that's often misreported as "lethal". But still, the language seems appropriate.

The article doesn't say how the spray affects the sense of smell, which I'd guess it diminishes or blocks. We evolved that sense for good survival reasons.

Shields up: "PCANS forms a gel, increasing its mechanical strength by a hundred times, forming a solid barrier"

I wonder if it feels unpleasant

I love the elegance of a simple solution like this to solve seemingly much more sophisticated problems.

This is very good engineering imo.

Modeled on (and improved) the booger!

COVID is airborne, it doesn’t spread via droplets. It’s not clear whether this spray can also block airborne viruses or it only works on droplets.

https://www.epa.gov/indoor-air-quality-iaq/indoor-air-and-co...

If pure saline solution is too watery, couldn't I just add hyaluronic acid to make it more viscous?

I am using iovir it has some read algae in supposedly does kind of the same thing

As is often the case, I'm unsure why you're d'voted.

There's a patented nasal product containing a modified carrageenan which has had substantially beneficial results in many subjects. When coupled with various (non-prescription/natural) anti-xyz ingredients, it can be really effective.

I've been making my own nasal formula for over 8 years, which I discovered 7 years ago has been patented by one of the big pharmas. It works.

There's a lot of potential here, and algae is definitely on the list.

Care to share the details?

Not sure exactly what you're looking for, but a cursory search on the carrageenan nasal spray found this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8493111/

If I'm not mistaken, Betadine had a version that used something else with the carrageenan, but it was removed from the US market and I don't remember the ingredients.

As for my version, the HN environment is a bit too vicious to discuss my personal health methods. I've not been in the mood for phatic intellectual combat for a while now.

I was curious about your version, in the spirit of DIY health. No worries about not feeling up for flack from the peanut gallery.

So, internal disinfectant. Who'd have thought.

The article is useless because it says nothing about what the active ingredients are. The corresponding reference is also equally useless since it's paywalled. Nothing to see here.

I think I found the preprint of the article. Of course, the final published article has gone through some further editing. Anyway:

> To ensure safety during daily or repeated use, PCANS was meticulously designed as a “drug-free” formulation, incorporating biopolymers, surfactants, and alcohols that are listed in the inactive ingredient database (IID) or generally recognized as safe (GRAS) list of the Food and Drug Administration (FDA), and are present as excipients in commercially available nasal/topical formulations. These components and their unique concentrations were identified via a highly iterative approach aimed at maximizing sprayability, mucoadhesiveness, the capture of respiratory droplets, physical barrier property, pathogen neutralization activity, and nasal residence time.

> To prepare PCANS, gellan and pectin solutions were mixed in a ratio of 1:1, followed by the addition of tween-80 (Sigma Aldrich). The solution was then supplemented with benzalkonium chloride (BKC) (Sigma Aldrich) and subjected to immediate mixing by pipetting up and down several times. Finally, phenethyl alcohol (Sigma Aldrich) was added, and the pH of the solution was adjusted to 5.5.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.10.02.560602v1....

They seem to already have a commercial product named "Profi" with these ingredients, although the fact that it hasn't been tested in humans makes me trust it less.

You forgot the /s. Or at least I deeply hope you forgot the /s.

Why do you think so? Firstly, they have not publicly listed the ingredients. It's behind a paywall. Secondly, it's not even tested in humans. There is a fair chance of it being a scam.

When I saw "drug-free" the first thing that jumped to mind was a placebo. Which would not have shocked me.

> When I saw "drug-free" the first thing that jumped to mind was a placebo. Which would not have shocked me

Because people dying of covid are just “imagining it”?

I hope you don't think that covid is imaginary.

The article explains well enough that "drug free" doesn't mean inactive. So it's more a matter of what a "drug" consists of.

In this context, “drug-free” should probably be read as “they got permission to skip clinical trials, drug manufacturing oversight, Drug Facts labeling laws, and so on”.

Ah, then maybe "placebo" wasn't such a bad guess after all.

While cool, studies like this always remind me that we deliberately breed and infect animals to see if they suffer and die from the disease or the cure.

No need to remind me that without this we wouldn’t have all our medical advancements, it’s just a sad footnote to all of modern medicine, that’s all.

> They have not studied PCANS directly in humans

Stopped reading there. As promising as it sounds, I'll be a lot more interested when this is a product that's proven to work.

(Joke) Wake me when the human studies are done

The article doesn't even say how long the protection lasts for, or mention a single one of the ingredients by name. Doesn't really give the reader much to go on :-/

Abstract says PCANS suppresses pathological manifestations and offers protection for at least 4 hours.. I'd like to read the full paper. Anyone?

Doesn't seem like its proven to work, but looks like it can be purchased, called "Profi Nasal Spray".

In mice, and also using a printed replica of a nasal cavity. It will be a while before we even see human tests, and I'm sort of curious how humans will respond to feeling their noses filled with a gel...

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