Money Buys Happiness, Even If You're Already Rich | Hacker News Reader

Money Buys Happiness, Even If You're Already Rich

wsj.com

28 pointspaulpauper58 comments

I think happiness is actually a pretty complicated idea and people mean many different things by it. Is happiness pleasure? Fulfillment? Purpose? Is it a transitory psychological state or a deeper orientation? Or both? If we say money makes us happy, are we saying that money removes problems? That it enables positive experiences or material things that contribute to happiness? All of the above, or some combination of it?

Examining this topic with even two minutes of sustained attention and rigor revels the paucity of our discourse. Money contributes to happiness, but saying that money buys happiness is like saying not getting shot contributes to health. True, but there is so much more to the story.

> If we say money makes us happy, are we saying that money removes problems?

yes, money removes problems, and allows to build foundation (do not need to do hard labor 12h/d for food and shelter, have access to healthcare, healthy food and opportunities), and on top of that foundation one can pursue happiness in different directions (family, science, hobbies, sport, art, activism, etc)

I think a contributing factor is our obsession with measurement. Happiness is hard to prove, and having money is hard to fake. So money can become a proxy for happiness even though it may only be an enabler.

I kind of wonder if it is kind of like the pleasure people get in gaming where there are a continuous stream achievements and upgrades.

People take time to adapt to different milestones in their lives.

I can walk anywhere; I can drive anywhere; I have enough money to afford my own place; I can take time off; I am debt free; I own property; I can employ others; I don't have to work; etc...

Article text: https://www.reddit.com/r/Economics/comments/1fvxrxl/comment/...

Source paper: https://www.pnas.org/doi/abs/10.1073/pnas.2016976118

Key quote: "Drawing on 1,725,994 experience-sampling reports from 33,391 employed US adults, the present results show that both experienced and evaluative well-being increased linearly with log(income)"

Personal opinion: The title is slightly incorrect. Money doesn't directly buy happiness. Instead, money buys freedom, and freedom can be invested & converted into happiness. E.g, having a sufficient amount of savings (also known as "Fuck You Money") allows a person to leave a bad situation (job, location, partner, etc) and find a better one that makes them happier. Money doesn't directly buy long term happiness if it's splurged on random short-term dopamine hits like a fancy car or ephemeral social status. This is a key tenet of the FI/RE movement and one of the reasons for UBI.

Source: I watched many people at FAANGs spend their $500k+ salaries on random short term things and never manage to find long term happiness or escape the rat race.

Exactly, freedom is the key, but one's attitude towards how the money is spent matters a lot. I'd also add that if the money if the satisfaction from spending the money is shared with others, it's much higher.

the conclusions i've reached are

- it's definitely possible to be so poor that you'll never be happy

- it's definitely possible to be so unhappy that money won't help

- once you've established what makes you happy, money unlocks much more

I've also found some years ago that

- the more I think about myself, the less happy I am.

I think it's often true that people who are rich and unhappy are using their money primarily for their own vanity.

As an Archie comic a long time ago stated, "Money can't buy love, but it can rent a lot of affection".

I think the nugget here is that this is true of people with significant resources already.

Previously, the common adage was that there was a ceiling. That beyond $75,000 (at the time), there was no more happiness to be gained by more money. Now it seems that the same study could be interpreted in multiple ways.

Here are links to other articles about the study, the conclusions, and the change.

https://behavioralpolicy.princeton.edu/news/DK_wellbeing0323

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/money-happiness-study-daniel-ka...

It seems the real finding is that money can only solve unhappiness caused by things that cost money (which is a lot to be fair), however, if the source of your unhappiness is something else, money doesn't work to make you happy.

But once your rich, what really causes unhappiness due to money. Is money really the root cause of your lack of unhappiness because you can't buy an NFL team? I think the reason why the common adage resonates is because most people feel that if the NFL team is what you think is causing your unhappiness -- there's actually something much deeper going on.

It's not that deep.

I want thing. What's preventing me from getting thing? Usually it's money. Now I have thing and that makes me happy.

However happiness fades. If it didn't, we would never desire to seek out repeated desirable experiences. We wouldn't seek out novelty. And there's nothing wrong with happiness fading. It's a good thing that it does fade.

You don't have to be "unhappy" to become happy. Sometimes I'm just bored. Content, for sure, but bored.

Money is the vehicle by which we attain the goods and experiences we want. Even in personal relationships, money does help. The vast majority of divorces cite money as a major reason. Mostly because lack of money means lower standard of living and that can cause stress, etc.

I mean, you have to go to the extreme of owning an NFL team to find something where you can be sure the vast majority of people can't attain. Because you know that for most things, that could make someone happier. If you want a sweet car, buying a sweet car will make you happier. If you want a huge mansion, you need mansion money. You want a suite at the Super Bowl, money solves that. Etc.

And yes, if you don't get those things, it's not like it'll make the person despondent, but like the meme says "Life is good, but it can be better."

My son talked to me about something he wanted and it reminded me of this thread - got me thinking “that person probably is right!”

My take on Money is that it buys happiness of one type: being able to afford things . But it can come at a cost where sometimes it cancels out the happiness in other areas. For example, an entrepreneur working 80 hour weeks or even a hot shot lawyer etc who have no time for other things but can buy their kid a $1000 ipad easily.

Yes you need money and yes it is generally good to have more than less. But Happiness comes from other areas and Money is just 1 factor. So if you are rich already, yes more money could buy a bit more happiness but for complete fullfillment in life, you need other things.

Some things money cannot buy. For example, real social connections. Friendships. Relationship with your spouse. Family. etc.

Happiness is being able to do what your mind desires i.e. having lot of Freedom. Money unlocks freedom. But tasting too much freedom can be distressing and disorienting. A river dries out if not restricted by banks.(e.g. Britney Spears). So we need exoskeleton of externally imposed restrictions to keep us in shape so that our guts don't fall out. Anxiety is the dizziness of Freedom.

Hah, ask my kid. Money does buy happiness when we go to a store. $20 for a black bottle of prime that they always wanted? Why not! I could start explaining with logic why it is not wise to buy it, but would my kid be happy lying to himself or happy holding that bottle? Same applies for lots of other cheap and expensive products. YOLO is a real thing that should not be avoided and at the same time should not be abused.

Of course it does. It's bizarre that people claim otherwise.

It usually means "money is not the largest bottleneck in my happiness", or alternatively, "it's more effective to optimize something else".

This is a common situation for people that have enough of it to make a stable life.

The main finding is that happiness correlates with log wealth, and what people were missing from the $75,000 ceiling before was that they weren't taking the log.

In fact, it takes only $300 (real 2000 USD) /year to survive, and historically (>300 years ago) most humans were earning this much for millenia. At times, e.g. China was considered rich for earning $1000/year and considered a "rich country".

It would be absolutely bizzare if happiness just happened to not respond to wealth at exactly $75,000, which is 200x susistence or 75x historical rich.

The way going from $75K->$150K or $150K->$300K brings happiness seems more or less the same as $35K->$75K or $20K->$40K.

For the majority of human history, the majority of the world's population were subsistence farmers at best. They didn't "earn money". They made enough food off their farm to be able to survive, and traded the rest for tools, other food, etc. Or were serfs or slaves where even that was beyond them.

Exactly, the $300/year is imputed value for the amount of food they grew and housing services from the houses they build. They rarely received $300 as e.g. gold that they declared.

>In fact, it takes only $300 (real 2000 USD) /year to survive, and historically (>300 years ago) most humans were earning this much for millenia.

I get the point you're trying to make, but this isn't accurate. It takes more than $300 or $2000 to survive now. You can't just adjust historical values for inflation and claim they apply today when the historical values were derived from a system that didn't function like today's.

I only ever hear the claim that money doesn't buy happiness from people that don't have money. It's copium.

I feel like I've experienced the exact opposite - why would people randomly assume that such a powerful tool won't help them out?

It usually comes from rich people who find that having a ton of money doesn't resolve all their problems. The truly vexing thing is - why the heck do people think it means that money cannot provide any pleasure whatsoever, when it very clearly is referring to the idea that money alone does not make you happy?

Enough money buys immensely more freedom with your time. Translates directly into liberty of a sort more tangible and personally meaningful day-to-day than half the stuff in the bill of rights.

That’s how I know all the studies that put the inflection point for the happiness-per-dollar graphs well under the point at which you no longer have to give up time you could be, say, spending with your kids, just to make a buck, they’re full of shit. Zero chance the study isn’t flawed beyond hope of salvation.

[edit] put it this way: retiring at 45 versus 65 with enough money for not-working to be very low-risk and stress-free gets you the equivalent of about nine years of extra life in terms of waking hours, right in your prime years, not tacked on at the end, and that’s assuming all sixteen (say) waking hours per day are equal, while really you’ll be getting back some of the best hours and also not being as wiped-out and distracted for the remaining ones, so it’s actually even better than that. Money stops efficiently buying happiness somewhere in the low-six-figures of income? Nope, don’t buy it for a second.

There is such a thing as decreasing marginal utility; earlier research claimed that the ability of money to provide happiness drops off after some threshold is reached. For example:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30980059/

As I see it, aside from the obvious (Security, food, etc.) money lets you focus more on certain activities of your own choice. Either through more time or more efficient use of time (ie: pay for a coach, etc.).

This can make you happier if those activities align with what brings you happiness in a sustainable way. Many people are pretty terrible at knowing what that is or caring to do those activities which just makes it a net neutral. Cocaine fueled benders instead of a top tier therapist type of stuff.

My own experience:

I never developed the habit of spending more when my salary went up, so raises do not do much for me these days. I think most folks do, so someone making 500k a year probably can afford more of their lifestyle. 10% more for me changes nothing (other than the age at which I get to retire - perhaps a relevant part of the debate).

The Planet Money podcast reciently did a great episode about this topic:

https://www.npr.org/2024/09/18/1200121013/money-happiness-ka...

Money, imo, buys security. The more you have in theory the less you have to worry about your mortgage (if any), healthcare, retirement etc. By taking the issue of financial security off the table it allows people to pursue whatever brings them happiness, instead of worrying about paying bills.

Absolutely. I know people who have money but aren't really happy. Let's say they're clueless about how to get some needs in their lives that money can't buy. Love for example. I've seen people who attempt to buy their love and it does not end up very well. Also mental health. Though people who have money have a higher likelihood of solving their mental health crises due to more available resources don't always do better than people who don't have money.

Works where archive.ph is blocked:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/money-buys-happiness...

Text-only:

https://assets.msn.com/content/view/v2/Detail/en-in/AA1rEHEH

Hookers and blow always put a smile on someone's face.

Money can’t buy happiness, but when properly utilized, it’s damned effective at deleting obstructions to happiness.

A funny joke I once heard:

Money can't buy happiness. But it can sure help you park your yacht next to it.

Every one of my siblings and cousins, my nephews and nieces live in poverty. Poverty, addiction and early death are rampant in what remains of my extended family. Having a six figure income, interesting work, and disposable cash has bought me peace and happiness that is hard to express.

"Money can't buy happiness, but it can buy a ski-doo. You ever seen someone frownin' on a ski-doo before?"

Jokes aside, I feel like clarification is needed here. The idea that money doesn't buy happiness comes from a few things.

1. You're most happy when helping others and building community. This is proven time and time again through studies [1]. You cannot purchase friends or accomplishments.

2. Simply having a pile of cash doesn't make you happy. In fact, it doesn't really even make you happy when you buy things. You might get a hit of dopamine, but how would a fast car or big house make you happy? Certainly having access to SOME vehicle and SOME house would alleviate a ton of stress, but that's not the same as gaining happiness.

3. People need to recognize the differences here - a dopamine hit quickly fades. You will stop being "happy" because the novelty of having your toy wears off. The novelty of having friends never wears off, and you don't need to keep acquiring new friends to maintain happiness.

I have no idea where all this "new wisdom" is coming from, but it's really bad, pretty much every time I see it.

edit: I should note that I can't read the article because it's paywalled. Maybe there's some mind-blowing revelation inside, but I doubt it.

[1] https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10902-020-00242-8

I used to think this but I think it's more like it buys autonomy, but at some point you need to make the leap and enjoy the full benefits of money

https://archive.is/ff533

Money buys experiences, comfort, and some happiness.

I wouldn’t expect the Wall Street Journal to be a serious critic of capitalism anyway…

... if you know how to use them for such purpose

Only rich people say money doesn't buy happiness.

Not true. Plenty of nonrich people say money doesn't buy happiness. I've known people from literally every socioeconomic level, and one thing that's very very obvious to me is that there's no actual correlation between happiness and socioeconomic status.

My favorite take on the sentiment is that money doesn't buy happiness, but it can rent it for a little while.

When all your problems can be solved by money, it buys happiness. When none of your problems can be solved by money, the perception is it isn't impacting your happiness, but I bet getting rid of it would impact your happiness a lot...

I've always taken to the perspective that money alleviates stress and anxiety, but alleviating stress and anxiety is not the definition of happiness (even if it helps).

Your perspective encapsulates mine and I would add that having no financial burden does grant one all of their time too if they choose. Time is the one thing that no one can ever directly buy more of and earning more time is done day in and day out through sound choices around mental and physical activity. Money buys experiences, invest wisely to earn more time, while I state to everyone to "Stay Healthy!" and make sound long term choices because one's potential future health event can significantly change one's future. I speak from direct experience.

Stay Healthy!

> Plenty of nonrich people say money doesn't buy happiness.

Isn't this like blind people saying blue is overrated?

Are these non-rich actually struggling or is it just a cope for them? By struggling I mean having to choose between paying various things like food, heat, electricity, car, rent and so on?

Yes, I'm including those who are actually struggling financially.

>Plenty of nonrich people say money doesn't buy happiness.

Honestly that mostly seems to be a sour grapes thing to convince themselves they wouldn't be happier with more money.

I find it fascinating how pretty much all opinion from people lower on the socioeconomic ladder gets dismissed as "they're just jealous".

In my experience, that's not often the truth of the matter.

I've spent most of my life on the lower socioeconomic ladder, I understand the copium that poor folks use to get through life that seems designed to exclude them and keep them from having nicer things.

I specifically commented further up that it's bizarre to claim that money doesn't buy happiness, because it pretty obviously does, at least up to a certain point. But I also remember times in my life where I've comforted myself by pretending that being poor was a virtue instead of just being shafted by life and circumstance and I've heard similar thoughts expressed by others.

In the hobbyist/amateur racing scene there is a saying that "money can't buy happiness, but it can buy a racecar, and a racecar brings happiness."

Which is meant to be flippant, but there's truth in it. The rise and grind folks that spend their existence chasing money often forego hobbies. And then they achieve success and become sort of lost. Maybe they buy stuff to rent happiness for a while, but without any underlying interest or passion, it's just stuff, and can't provide any lasting happiness. That's why so many successful people go back to work, because it's the only thing they know how to do.

I just know if I end up with a giant pile of cash, I'm paying for my whole team to go racing as much as we'd like.

Money buys happiness for people open to happiness.

Money buys therapy and psychiatric drugs for people who aren't open to happiness but are self aware enough to realize it.

Nothing does shit for the unaware, Money or otherwise.

Unrepentant assholes with money are just better at spreading their misery, which is as close to happiness as some misanthropes can get.

How would anybody else know?

It's great the scientific HN crowd realizes the truth of this very scientific research report, which also flatters the preconceptions of the class they were born to. Rivals those intelligence studies which magically measure intelligence, also flattering the preconceived notion of the class they...et al. With their apparent plethora of identical twins reared apart.

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