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That proc macros have significant drawbacks, and you personally weigh those drawbacks as having a lot of significance, doesn’t change that for many people, the juice is worth the squeeze. 375M downloads don’t lie.

I agree with you that there are significant drawbacks, which is why I’d love to see reflection happen in Rust.

> being at the root of the keynote incident

I don’t believe this to be true, based on what I know from both public and private information. I think a lot of people don’t like dtolnay due to the Palantir thing, and decided to try and inflate his involvement.

But even from just public information: blame lies with the decision makers. By his own account, Josh Triplett suggested a demotion, and Sage Griffin set that into motion. They’ve both since apologized. I do not believe they are solely to blame, but if you want to point fingers at individuals, they’re who I would describe as “in the center.”

Overall the blame relies on Rust’s continual failure to do governance in a way that’s responsive and legible to its users, and continually ignores the written rules to just do whatever whoever has the soft power wants. This isn’t a unique story in open source, of course.

> someone who doesn't aparently have any official position in the rust foundation

The Rust Foundation does not govern most of the things you’re upset with. He is a member of the libs-api team in the Project, though.

> being ex-palantir

I’ll be the first to say “Fuck Palantir” but being upset at people for where they worked a long time ago just doesn’t sit right with me. Do you think that anyone who’s ever worked anywhere objectionable should be branded with that decision for life? Many people don’t like me for working at Cloudflare. Is there no possibility for change in your mind?

If we truly want to play that game, you’re gonna have to exclude like half of the industry.

> 375M downloads don’t lie.

That de-facto standartisation (and resulting monopoly due to the network effect) is exactly why serde should either be part of std or be replaced with a more heterogeneous ecosystem.

You conveniently ignore the other incidents. Had it only been the keynote incident (including the non-apology 3 months later after he was ousted by someone else, and the therein included misrepresentation of thephds' opinion regarding his own talk) I would have brushed it off, but there is a pattern to it. The palantir thing is just the cherry on top because it is indicative of questionable moral compass to me.

A compass which can of course change, but if I had such a controversial former employer I'd distance myself from them after having such a change of heart (which to my knowledge hasn't happened).

Too long of a "Series of Unfortunate Events" to have this much power consolidated with a single BDFL for rusts serialization and metaprogramming story.

> If we truly want to play that game, you’re gonna have to exclude like half of the industry.

Completely unrelated, but maybe that's what it takes to grow as a field. As a german I have a lot less bussiness with palantir, but I'm reminded of the situation after WW2 where we had to essentially fill major political and bueraucratic roles with literal Nazis because we didn't have anyone else. The german internal intelligence service has been involved in a lot of crazy neonazi terrorist attacks to this day. Go figure.

> That de-facto standartisation

Sure, that's a fine opinion to have, but you were challenging my "people use serde" assertion. All I'm saying is that people do in fact use it.

> You conveniently ignore the other incidents.

Yeah, I submitted this post two days ago, but it hit the front page now. I was not exactly prepared to see comments here, I was on my morning walk, and typed that out on my phone. It was already getting too long.

> including the non-apology 3 months later after he was ousted by someone else

A "non-apology" because he wasn't the one at fault! And he was "ousted" because people were crying for his head, specifically, because of the Palantir thing. Not because he had any real thing to do with it. Yet people seem to want to blame him regardless of the actual facts.

But sure if you want to get into the other things, now that I'm at a computer:

> shipping binary blobs in serde to make a point and push an RFC

It is incredibly normal to ship binary blobs in other ecosystems. pjmlp will post on basically every Rust thread that Rust isn't a serious language until it can ship binary libraries. People care about compile times, and a binary serde would help with that.

With ineffectual Rust leadership, sometimes just doing the thing is the only way to actually get things done. I don't see responding to the needs of your users in spite of other people dragging their heels as "abuse of power."

> being the final descision maker of the latest core::time breakage

Do you have a citation on this one? I agree that this probably shouldn't have happened, but given that it took five minutes to recognize that it happend, type "cargo update -p time", and then move on with my life, it's not a huge deal to me. But Rust decisions aren't usually made by a single person, so that he personally somehow made the call would surprise me.

> (which to my knowledge hasn't happened).

As someone who is reasonably well known on the internet, it's still wild to me how much people expect others to put out in public about their personal lives. Asking for someone to publicly denounce an employer from years ago is just weird. People are free to keep their private life private.

Furthermore, even if he did do that, it's pretty clear that the folks who talk like this:

> Too long of a "Series of Unfortunate Events" to have this much power consolidated with a single BDFL for rusts serialization and metaprogramming story.

wouldn't even accept the apology. It's been years of casting every single thing into the worst light, in bad faith. I am glad that he is seemingly unphased by what I would describe as a borderline harassment campaign.

> Sure, that's a fine opinion to have, but you were challenging my "people use serde" assertion.

That wasn't my intention at all. I was challenging the narrative that serde has been one of the best things that happen to rust since sliced bread/borrow checking.

I'm gonna reuse a reply to a different comment because I feel it captures the gist of my opinion, and because the dtolnay drama was one point among many, and is again generating more emotional effort than it's worth:

But my point, is that his crates (and thus he) hold too much power, even if there had been 0 incidents. That's not his failure per-se, but it's rusts failure if a single person can hold this much power, and be involved with this many shit-storms, without someone stepping up and being like "maybe we should put the decisions for this essential infrasructure on more shoulders". Even if he was the rust messiah himself, I wouldn't be comfortable with a Bus factor of one, for something that "is often credited as a reason people reach for Rust."

We should stop putting serde on a pedestal and call it what it is, an ok serialization library, that falls short of the potential that rust has in that space.

We should also call syn by it's name. A lisp-style macro system to polyfill the shortcommings of rusts macros, that has become rusts de-facto macro system for anything that goes beyond the simplest declarative macros at 600.000.000 downloads.

No matter how you and I feel about the guy behind those things, it seems obvious to me that we should strive to replace serde with something better, and either replace the need for syn with a system for compile time introspection (I don't have high hopes for this anymore), or pave the cow paths and integrate the existing API into core (as a side effect also cutting down on compile times).

> That wasn't my intention at all.

I see, I misunderstood you, my apologies.

> That's not his failure per-se, but it's rusts failure if a single person can hold this much power

I do agree that bus factor is important. Unfortunately, this seems to happen in a lot of ecosystems: https://xkcd.com/2347/

> But my point, is that his crates (and thus he) hold too much power, even if there had been 0 incidents. That's not his failure per-se, but it's rusts failure if a single person can hold this much power, and be involved with this many shit-storms, without someone stepping up and being like "maybe we should put the decisions for this essential infrasructure on more shoulders". Even if he was the rust messiah himself, I wouldn't be comfortable with a Bus factor of one, for something that "is often credited as a reason people reach for Rust."

Man supports thanklessly a set of libraries that evolve on basically every minor rust version (syn/quote) for 6 years with minor hickups, and you want to Bus him? Over holding a seat at libs table? That's not a BDFL, that's seat at the round table.

Hic Rhodus, hic salta! You try doing the same.

Feel free to step up and support your own serialization library. You too can have this "power"

Note: Your budget will be $0, your reward will be people hurling insults at you.

That's not how network effects work.

The fact that most crates are compiled with serde as feature flag and the fact that you can raise a PR on most things that aren’t — are both great cases for Rust having an awesome ecosystem. Just as with async support, serialization support is a free market of ideas.

>(Zig is eating Rusts lunch in that department)

I mean, has it? I find the way it works in Zig rather clunky, and unless I'm missing something (and I know comptime reflection isn't the same), I just usually end up needing or wanting something closer to c++ templates or even consteval/constexpr. Again, I'm pretty sure this is a total skill issue and just a lack of imagination from my side, but I don't see what I could do with zig that I can't with c++ (I'm specifically referring to comptime here). I know the difference in theory, as c++ doesn't have actual reflection, but I wonder what's the practical difference in use cases.

(In fact I used to think that not having a separate metaprogramming language was awesome, as I really disliked the language inside a language that are c++ templates but I'm not sure I agree anymore. Especially with additions like constexpr/eval)

I'd like to challenge your theories.

> syn itself is essentially a hack that has become so entrenched that there is little incentive to improve rusts metaprogramming story

It's not a hack it's a way to expose compiler internals, by way of 3rd party crates.

I think rust developers don't want to maintain it, because it would lead to compiler calcification, via backwards compatibility guarantees.

> rusts type system is strong enough to build extremely powerful zerocopy serialization

Unclear what you mean, but other than syn and quote you don't have a way to reflect and do code gen, outside of build script. Which also use it.

Note there are alternative like mini serde and nano serde, but no library for type reflection.

> the author of serde and syn has been at the center of a ton of drama

By ton you mean two. First drama was that he expressed interest in Jean Heyd's project (because of reduced build times) but thought it not best presentation for RustConf. He wasn't the only one. But his vote led to Heyd burning all bridges with Rust project.

Second is doing a speedup of serde by converting some crates to binary blobs. This broke reproducibility of some builds, even if it's not a SemVer violation.

> being the final descision maker of the latest core::time

[Citation needed] I've seen https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/127343#issuecomment...

That's just notes from the meeting. Do you have proof he was the deciding vote?

> and being ex-palantir

Ok. This is straight up conspiracy theory. It implies everyone working for Palantir is Mossad level spook.

> the rust community is perceived as being unprofessional and overly dramatic

Rust community can be overly dramatic and unprofessional without dtolnay. He wasn't the one harassing Actix developer via GitHub.

---

Problem with your theory, is that it's disjointed and too simple. It makes sense in pieces but not as a whole.

Dtolnay needs to want comptime reflections for compilation speet reduction, but also sabotage them. He needs to promote binary blobs but also leave the source. He needs to sabotage time for ??? And make Rust community seems deranged, when they are doing fine job on their own.

It might be that I'm shooting the messenger here, and that he was just the one that closed the issue.

But my point, is that his crates (and thus he) hold too much power, even if there had been 0 incidents. That's not his failure per-se, but it's rusts failure if a single person can hold this much power, and be involved with this many shit-storms, without someone stepping up and being like "maybe we should put the decisions for this essential infrasructure on more shoulders". Even if he was the rust messiah himself, I wouldn't be comfortable with that Bus factor.

No grand conspiracy needed. Being ex-palantir just makes me believe him more if he acts like a jerk, that he mighy actually be a jerk, nothing more nothing less.

>> rusts type system is strong enough to build extremely powerful zerocopy serialization

> Unclear what you mean, but other than syn and quote you don't have a way to reflect and do code gen, outside of build script. Which also use it.

> Note there are alternative like mini serde and nano serde, but no library for type reflection.

Reflection/comptime/codegen are all orthogonal to zero copy (de)serialization.

To briefly(ish) describe zero copy by way of comparison, consider JSON: there's no way to parse a JSON object into your language's data structures without (among other things) copying any strings you come across (rather than directly borrowing a slice of the original buffer). Why not? Consider escapes: you must first unescape the string, which entails a new allocation. But this doesn't stop at strings: if you have an array, you must first parse that array (usually accumulating a copy of the elements in a Vec<Object> or similar, which in turn means that the whole array was effectively copied), rather than providing a "cursor" into the original buffer. Parsing JSON requires traversing the entire buffer and copying everything you come across.

Protocol buffers works much the same way: because structures are variable length (and in fact, scalars are too -- integers are stored as base 128 varints), if you want the Nth element of an array, you have no choice but to parse all the proceeding elements (rather than nudging a cursor's offset by N×sizeof(Elem) -- you can't do that because the size of any element is unknown until after you've parsed it). Because you want O(1) indexing after parsing, the logical implication is that whenever you parse a protobuf message, the protobuf library parses (and copies) the entire thing, and any array/repeated field ends up as a new array allocation in your language (e.g. Vec<Elem>).

Contrast with something like flatbuffers or Cap'n Proto: the code generated from your schema file gives you structures that (more or less) have two fields: a reference to a buffer, and an offset into that buffer. When you do something like person.age(), the offset of the age field (which is constant) is added to the offset of this person record, and that combined offset if used to index into the buffer (something like buffer.read_u32(offset)). Using a library like this gives you performance similar to what you'd have dereferencing array indices and struct fields in plain old data types in your language of choice. You don't pay in memory and processor time parsing everything up front, you only pay for the scalar memory reads you actually use (and a little bit of quasi-pointer chasing, not unlike what would happen with native structs).

Put another way: a zero copy (de)serialization protocol is one where the on-disk format is the same as the (readily usable) in-memory format. This rules out things like string escaping (just store the original bytes), variable sized records/integers, variable length arrays stored inline with records (otherwise that would make records themselves variable length), storing pointers in records (because those pointers will be meaningless when read from disk; instead: store offsets), etc.

You can read more about zero copy as it relates to Rust here:

https://manishearth.github.io/blog/2022/08/03/zero-copy-1-no...

Here's the Wikipedia article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-copy

Examples of zero copy (de)serialization libraries:

https://github.com/rkyv/rkyv

https://github.com/google/flatbuffers

https://github.com/capnproto/capnproto

> Put another way: a zero copy (de)serialization protocol is one where the on-disk format is the same as the (readily usable) in-memory format.

Ok, but for it to be useful in a (Rust) program it has to be converted to a Rust type. At some point you'll have to do a conversion. Whether it's UTF-16 to String or string "false" to `bool`.

The reflection, code gen, etc. is the answer how you convert the values auto-magically.

> The reflection, code gen, etc. is the answer how you convert the values auto-magically.

I don't think anyone (j-pb included) is saying anything to the contrary.

Here's what you wrote:

>> rusts type system is strong enough to build extremely powerful zerocopy serialization

> Unclear what you mean, but other than syn and quote you don't have a way to reflect and do code gen, outside of build script. Which also use it.

But your response doesn't logically follow from the text you quoted (so I figured you weren't familiar with zero copy). This isn't j-pb saying that Rust's type system could be used to forgo proc-macros -- j-pb isn't saying anything about proc-macros in the text you quoted.

To be clear, these two points from j-pb's original comment are two separate, orthogonal issues:

> - rusts type system is strong enough to build extremely powerful zerocopy serialization, but people don't explore that space because of serde

> - macros and especially proc-macros in Rust are horrible, and are only feasible because of the syn crate

Exactly! Serde is good enough that few people look for alternative ways of doing things (i.e. zerocopy), and the network effect incentivizes just integrating with it, to be compatible with all the other crates. At the same time (but orthogonal to the previous point) it serves as one of the first contact points and prime example of how to do metaprogramming in rust for new people (syn/quote and derive proc macros). This combination of being one of the first things you touch, it's age, and the fact that quote/syn IS a lot better API than what proc macros natively expose, has is in my opinion a lot of influence over (old and new) rust developer metaprogramming mindshare, and pushes the language down a specific garden path/design space. (What I'm trying to champion here is that this should be done more deliberately, much like jQuery eventually caused the cration of new querySelector web APIs.)

> - rusts type system is strong enough to build extremely powerful zerocopy serialization, but people don't explore that space because of serde

That's what I have a problem with. Pure Zero-copy parsers aren't explored because 99.9% of the time you have to escape and/or convert data to be useful.

Let's say we create a localization library that's zero-copy. Great, now whenever we call a field, since it's zero copy and might contain an escaped value, we need to invoke the escape function on it. So every call of field actually has an overhead of a method call, know what doesn't have that overhead? Converting it once and serving it constantly. But that's not zero-copy, as per the explanation given.

It's not due to serde, it's because people don't want or need a pure zero copy parser.

Zero-copy parsers, as you explained, make a lot of sense if you have a packet of data, do some mapping, evaluating and send it over the wire ASAP. That's not the same use case as storing data for longer time like settings, localization, serialization, etc.

> - macros and especially proc-macros in Rust are horrible, and are only feasible because of the syn crate

Macros by example, don't use syn crate, they are more like regex for syntax than anything.

Proc macros were always considered a kind of temporary feature that became a backbone of Rust. Pretty sure it was used a lot in some Servo components, plus it's kinda needed for many other things.

Additionally, syn isn't the only way to use in proc-macro. You're 100% free to roll your own, you just have to account for all the edge cases, all minor nits in language, etc. So you can write your own buggy version of syn, or you can use syn.

I mean, not everyone working with FSB related organizations are Mossad level spooks either, but it would still be weird to not be suspicious about it. And it sure wouldn't be weird to not want to associate with said person. Not sure why that doesn't apply to organizations that are super connected to the CIA and a lot of other intelligence/security agencies.

Though I agree that I wouldn't mind as much if I was american, it's just my "foreign" perspective.