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Comment by bad_user | Hacker News Reader

Scala is very much alive and kicking.

https://redmonk.com/sogrady/2024/09/12/language-rankings-6-2...

The initial hype has died off and that's OK. The hype cycle is inevitable for all languages. Also, predictions rarely happen, mostly because the landscape has changed. Mainstream programming languages can no longer die like Cobol did.

E.g., Java has been dying ever since 2001, surviving the dotcom bubble, .NET, the P in LAMP, Ruby, JS, or Go. Python was supposed to die on its version 3 migration, with people supposedly moving to Ruby.

FWIW, Scala is the world's most popular FP language, it has good tooling, and libraries, and Scala 3 is a wonderful upgrade.

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I spent 3 years working on scala tooling in my free time. One of my libraries is used by the vast majority of scala users (it is a dependency of other widely used tools). There was growth from 2018-2023 but it has flatlined over the last year. Right when theoretically it should be getting the boost from scala 3 having now been stable for a bit.

Personally I feel that scala has too much in the language and the compiler is too slow. The tooling is pretty good but it is finicky and ends up getting slow and/or unreliable with larger projects. Even if I were to restrict myself to a small subset of scala, I would still be unsatisfied with the long compile times which was the primary reason I decided to move on.

I don't know if I agree with your contention that languages can't die like COBOL. I think you can relatively easily keep a legacy scala system up, put it in maintenance mode and write new features/products in something else. That is what I expect is already happening with scala and that this trend is likely to accelerate. Keep in mind also that Martin Odersky is nearing retirement age and it's really hard to imagine scala without him. He has much more power/control than the head of most languages.

IMO, there's rarely such a thing as maintenance mode. Projects constantly evolve, and in turn this drives more investment in tooling and the ecosystem needed to keep those projects up. And this investment is what eventually drives more new projects and fresh blood, keeping the language fresh and in demand.

Again, look at Java.

Ofc, there's always the question of what happens with a market that isn't constantly growing due to zero-interest rates phenomenon. I guess we'll see, but IMO, that's problematic for newer languages, not established ones.

I too am a contributor of very popular libraries and am very familiar with ecosystem. One thing to keep in mind is that the language's culture has evolved. When I picked up Scala, back in 2010, the Future pattern and Future-driven libraries were all the rage. Whereas nowadays people prefer alternatives which now includes blocking I/O (Loom), with Future-driven libs being a risk going forward.

I don't think many people would describe Java as "fresh" these days. In demand, sure, but this is overwhelmingly driven by existing large enterprise codebases. Also, for all the talk about nifty new features, how much stuff is still on v11 even?

I understand from where your reply is coming from, but again, I was reading the same opinions about Java since more than 2 decades ago.

> overwhelmingly driven by existing large enterprise codebases

That happens with all mainstream languages, but it's a feedback cycle. The more popular a language is (in large enterprise codebases), the more it will get used in new projects, for obvious reasons. People want to get shit done and to have good ROI and maintenance costs. Therefore, the availability of documentation, tooling, libraries, and developers helps, in large and small projects alike.

And yes, Java is quite fresh, IMO.

Two decades ago was 2004; that would be when Java first shipped generics. I remember those times and I don't think the sentiment was similar then. People certainly had many complaints about Java, and more specifically about some elements of the stack such as EJB, but as a whole I don't recall it being predominantly seen as "legacy" back then the way it is now.

> The more popular a language is (in large enterprise codebases), the more it will get used in new projects

It seems to me the more popular a language, the more poorly written libraries are found in it, which soon starts to draw people away from what is popular to a new language that has a limited library ecosystem thinking they can fix the mistakes they saw last time and make a name for themselves in the process. Lather, rinse, repeat.

I've been a Java developer for nearly 2 decades, in multi companies, despite being proficient with other languages. Java just happened to pay better.

Nearly all companies I worked for were developing new systems, tools, etc. Rarely I was doing maintenance on "existing larger enterprise systems".

> how much stuff is still on v11 even?

We've had a potential client ask for a PoC in Java 8, to integrate with their current system... But yeah, our product is deployed with Java 11 and since some dependencies have issues with 18, we'll likely stay that way for a few more years

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