Mullenweg threatens corporate takeover of WP Engine
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I think it's also useful to note that Mullenweg wasn't demanding 8% of WPE's revenue, but rather an allocation of WPE revenue to WordPress ecosystem development (by staff members on WPE's own team), with the revenue to Automattic (or whoever, I forget) as an in-kind payment option.† That is a much more reasonable-sounding ask than simply forking over cash to Mullenweg's own business.
I'm not following this closely enough to vouch for the way Mullenweg is handling any of this (though: at this point I assume/hope he has counsel reviewing what he's saying!) but it would be weird to me at this point to see WPE cast as the "good guys" here. This seems like another one of those "it's just a bunch of guys" scenarios.
† This is according to Mullenweg, of course, but he had Theo Browne reading emails to WPE off his laptop during the interview to back the claim up.
I agree that WP Engine cannot be characterised as "good guys" given it's a bottom-line driven machine that will chew up and spit out all in its path, and Matt has earned credibility through decades of community-minded WordPress stewardship, but let's not pretend this is some business deal that went sour, it's Matt using every inch of leverage he has to cause WP Engine pain because of his moral objections to the private-equity machine taking money away from his community-minded company.
Obviously WP Engine were never going to pay Automattic tens of millions of dollars per year, Matt knows that, we know that, it's a side show. He was just saying things to ruin their day. Just like the millions of dollars per year in costs incurred running WordPress.org that Matt has wheeled out to justify causing WP Engine pain by cutting them off from plugin updates (Cloudflare have offered to host WordPress.org for free; Matt has not accepted the offer).
For what it's worth: I agree with you about what seems subtextually to be behind this whole thing. But then: if they've been on notice for many months about Mullenweg being upset about their use of the trademarks and lack of participation in the community (confirmed on camera, unless he forged emails), it feels to me like WPE --- a company with an 8-9 figure run rate --- should have been in a position to know what was coming with WordPress.org and how to mitigate that.
I'm not casting Mullenweg as a hero; just making a case for it being a JABOG† situation, as I said above. And, of course, that the summary in the story we're reading is pretty one-sided.
† gonna make this a thing
The new to me allegation in this is this alleged WPE swap out of WooCommerce Stripe affiliate account:
WP Engine had been siphoning “tens of millions” of dollars away from Woo’s revenue share partnership with Stripe into its own coffers. It’s understood WP Engine has been swapping out WooCommerce’s Stripe Connect Account information for its own when a user installs WooCommerce.
Ripping out an OSS' revenue model would seem not great. There's a term for use of electronic communication systems to redirect money to oneself. But, not cut and dried, if the source code containing that model is fair game...
To your point, this must be a one-sided take as well, since one would have expected an accusation of 8 figure wire fraud to escalate more clearly if it were that simple.
It is their version of the project and they are permitted by the terms of the license that WooCommerce agreed to make whatever changes they like.
Open source is a double edged sword. You can't leverage the benefits of the community and then deny the community the ability to benefit themselves.
That point is impossible to reconcile with this phrase:
"...has been swapping out WooCommerce’s Stripe Connect Account information for its own when a user installs WooCommerce."
The verb tense "has been swapping" implies continuous repetition of the swap, not a one time fork, then "when a user installs WooCommerce" doubles down, implying it's the original code, with user install action being the time of the stealth edit.
The article's sentence is constructed incompatibly with the point you're making. Note I'm not saying your point is incorrect.
But it's extremely common to fork a project and keep it up to date with the latest commits from the original repository. Pretty much the standard in fact since most people just want to make a few small changes.
WP Engine has the legal right to make whatever change they like in their fork.
Including redirecting affiliate revenue.
MM continues to repeat the claim that WPE modified Woo itself, so WPE's lawyers are probably adding libel to the pile of claims. I think they're still waiting for a8c to file first for PR reasons.
Matt's company owns and uses wordpress.com, so Matt's sudden concern about WP Engine using Wordpress' trademark does not seem very believable (or at the least massively hypocritical). The trademark issue just seems like a handy weapon to get what he wants. However, there are no good guys in this feud as you said -- only mud.
It was definitely sudden, just last week the term "WP" was explicitly allowed in Wordpress' Trademark Policy. This issue isn't really trademarks, it is just a club.
"The abbreviation “WP” is not covered by the WordPress trademarks and you are free to use it in any way you see fit."
https://web.archive.org/web/20240924024555/https://wordpress...
> But that's all open source gets you. It doesn't entitle you to trademarks
Unless you're Mullenweg, who has abused the Wordpress trademark for years via wordpress.com. I greatly respect his years of work and dedication. However, the ends do not justify the means.
The WordPress project is not the foundation. The WordPress dot org website isn't under the foundation either (it's owned and run by Matt [2]), and should be considered separate from the project.
I think most contributors outside Automattic want to contribute to the project and its surrounding community, not WordPress dot org.
[1] https://tsdr.uspto.gov/caseviewer/assignments?caseId=7882673...
I think the question is, in exchange for what?
I think the reason that all this is controversial, is it feels a bit like a shake-down. Give us some resources, otherwise, while, that is a nice wordpress business you have there, it would be a shame if something happened to it.
It is a shake down. And the problem with negotiating with people like this is that it never stops.
There will never be enough contributions and money.
By contrast, this doesn't make WPE look good:
WP Engine had been siphoning “tens of millions” of dollars away from Woo’s revenue share partnership with Stripe into its own coffers. It’s understood WP Engine has been swapping out WooCommerce’s Stripe Connect Account information for its own when a user installs WooCommerce.
That's the sort of thing that, if a proven problem, could seem less like a shakedown and more like active wire fraud.
EDIT: As replies note, GPL. OK, but I realize I grew up thinking if someone gives me software it isn't to rip out their revenue model and replace it with mine, it is for me to do my own value added thing with it. Meaning, the stealth edit might not be wrong, but still seems uncool.
WooCommerce is an open source, GPL project which allows people to modify the code in any way, including changing Stripe details, provided that they comply with the terms of the license.
Licenses are a fundamental part of open source precisely so that in situations like this everyone knows the rules of the game.
This is explicitly the sort of thing that WP Engine would be allowed to do, and if Automattic isn't happy about this then perhaps they should have chosen non-free licenses.
Basically: "wire fraud" is an extremely overblown claim. Nothing criminal is happening here, because they're complying with the license. Is it ethical? Debatable.
Matt cannot stand competition, that's all.
In other words, a shakedown by another name.
Also, suggesting that WPE's contributions to the non-profit could be satisfied by paying Matt's for-profit company is almost the textbook definition of private inurement. I don't think he had lawyers familiar with non-profit law clear that offer before he made it. If I worked for the IRS right now WP and Matt would be pretty high on the list of organizations to take a closer look at.
I'm not a lawyer. Nominative fair use is complicated, as is WPE's use of the WP marks. All I can hope for here is to understand what claims people are making.
I realize you may just have been abbreviating, but until the middle of this current dispute, the WordPress Foundation explicitly allowed the use of "WP". Matt just edited it after framing it as a trademark issue.
Matt's was alleging violations of the license and the trademark. And he's wrong on both accounts.
2. Nominative use allows companies to refer to things by their name. It isn't obvious that "Wordpress Hosting" or "Wordpress plugin" is a violation or causes consumer confusion. Does Matt wish for all companies in the ecosystem to stop referring to their products as Wordpress Themes, Wordpress Plugins and Wordpress hosts?
It's worth noting that for years Wordpress.org has routinely referred to companies as "Wordpress hosts"
For example: https://learn.wordpress.org/tutorial/migrating-your-wordpres...
They don't seem to find it confusing and I suspect it would be difficult for Wordpress to launch a legal claim given tolerance of and direct use of those terms.
If the central repository is a problem, then each site draws on it in proportion to their usage and it isn't obvious why one site is an issue and others aren't.
Hence my question, does he wish hosts to move away from a central repository? He certainly can advocate for that but it's a larger issue than WPEngine.
Also sort of adjacent but Matthew Prince of Cloudfare has just offered to donate resources to fund the whole central repository: https://x.com/eastdakota/status/1841154152006627663
The norms of open source software don't really have much to say about this. Mullenweg is right: the typical thing companies that run GPL projects do when they end up competing with firms that don't pay their freight is to relicense. Being a little ruthless with trademarks seems strictly superior to switching to a "source available" license.
I do hope they open source the API. I might take a stab at implementing it using wpackagist (though possibly that's what they're using to mirror already)
I think Matt's position is that WP Engine is not Wordpress, so it's not appropriate to call their offerings Wordpress-anything.
>The abbreviation “WP” is not covered by the WordPress trademarks, but please don’t use it in a way that confuses people. For example, many people think WP Engine is “WordPress Engine” and officially associated with WordPress, which it’s not. They have never once even donated to the WordPress Foundation, despite making billions of revenue on top of WordPress.
Referential use doesn't allow someone to use marks to imply an association or endorsement, and I think it's clear what they're calling out in the trademark policy changes.
Three things that have influenced how I look at this:
* The revelation that Mullenweg was asking for headcount allocated to the WordPress project, not simply a cash payment. If you get a giant company rolling that is driven entirely off an open source project, it seems very reasonable to me for the open source project to use whatever leverage it has to get you contributing back.
* Mullenweg's argument that the norm for projects in "his" predicament to simply relicense to non-open-source terms; this seems incontrovertibly true, and also like it does a lot more damage to an open source community than what Mullenweg is attempting to do, which is to demand that a non-contributing company take his project's name out of their (marketing) mouths, and to stop using public services provided at the project's expense. WPE is in a position to mitigate anything Mullenweg can do here, so it's hard for me to sympathize too much.
* I was radicalized on this by working in security products during a time where it felt like dozens of funded startups were just picking up Snort and running with it as their core engine without contributing anything back, including proprietary stuff they built on top of it (and shipped in appliances, avoiding the licensing issues). I keep saying this is a "JABOG" situation, and I do believe that, but I have to remind myself of that to avoid casting one of these parties as the obvious bad guy.
Isn't WordPress using GPL code owned by other people? He doesn't get brownie points for not doing something that's illegal.
Except Mullenweg has zero authority or ability to do so, without the agreement of all the GPL contributors. Mullenweg might argue this, but he also has been around long enough to assuredly know that this is neither the case, nor possible for him to do so. Apropos of anything else, he built WordPress by forking b2.
He also demanded auditing of WP Engine by their direct competitor, Automattic.
0. https://automattic.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/term-sheet...
And as a reminder, WordPress.org is just Matt Mullenweg. It’s not even the WordPress Foundation, which is headed by him. WordPress.org is literally just him.
> > Do you really individually own http://WordPress.org?
> > Not Automattic? Not a different LLC or something? No employees? No board of directors?
> > Just you?
> Just me.
— https://x.com/grigs/status/1840958978043605361
So when Automattic offered WP Engine a term sheet that demanded that they put 8% of their gross monthly revenue towards employees “directed by WordPress.org”, what it’s actually demanding is that WP Engine pay the salaries of developers who would work for the CEO of their direct competitor.
Not to mention the fact that salaries are not the only cost incurred when employing somebody, so greater than 8% of their gross monthly revenue would be spent on Mullenweg’s flying monkeys.
Uhh, as Matt has stated, WordPress.org is him and him alone, a gift to the WordPress Foundation.
So Matt has demanded that WPE give this to WP.org, which belongs to him...
Would it take off? Would it tank? I believe WordPress is GPL, so I don't see why they couldn't (as long as they could legally fork or counter things like WooCommerce, that is).
It's a bit different from the situation with OpenTofu and similar since WP Engine would only need to keep their existing, highly invested customers to get a good start. The rest is a matter of marketing.
T'will be interesting to see how this ends.
(Note: I'm not saying that there is or is not merit to Mullenweg's or WP Engine's position. I haven't studied the situation enough to have an informed opinion there.)
What WP Engine will most likely do is run their own plugin repository mirror, strip off whatever trademarks they don't feel legally empowered in using, and move on. WordPress cannot legally exclude WP Engine from using WordPress code.
What if they had no interest in developing new features, and just concentrated on security and bug fixes for the current version?
I'd expect that most of the people who use a site like WP Engine to host their WP sites want to put out their content in a nice format and once they are happy with the way it looks and the tools they have for editing and administering it they would be would be fine with it staying on the same WP feature set for many years.
If the crux of the argument is that WP Engine doesn’t give back, I wonder how likely it would be that they’d be willing to do that.
Of course, if they were willing, they’d be allowed to do that and might even find success. I’ve often wondered why a host hasn’t tried to do a more focused WP-fork and the main conclusion I’ve come to is that they just aren’t willing to invest the significant resources that that would require.
It wasn’t a host, but CraftCMS was born out of ExpressionEngine (not the code; the Craft code all unique) and the makers of the most popular EE plugins being frustrated with the core EE direction.
Craft has a thriving business and EE has been sold several times and is much smaller than it was, so it ultimately worked.
But that was in some ways the opposite of this scenario; you had some of the largest ecosystem members who were unable to contribute meaningfully to core (because of the license/structure of EE at that time), opting to do their own thing.
I don’t anticipate any of the major hosts willing to invest what it would take to build/maintain their own WP fork.
I am just hoping that someone more connected to and respected within the WP community takes up the mantle; the fact that I can't even name such a person makes me pretty unqualified to lead a fork. But this is not the first iteration of #wpdrama, won't be the last, and my mental health is probably better served by putting WP in the rear view once and for all.
This does not feel like a stable foundation/platform to build a future on.
Mullenweg has a current net worth of approximately $400 million (source https://andsimple.co/cases/matt-mullenweg-net-worth/)
Is the "breaking thousands of sites" claim supported by any actual evidence, or is this just something Matt said?
> the story of how WP Engine broke thousands of customer sites yesterday in their haphazard attempt to block our attempts to inform the wider WordPress community regarding their disabling and locking down a WordPress core feature in order to extract profit.
( https://web.archive.org/web/20241001091653/https://wordpress... )
he just meant that they disabled the news widget? I assumed that tweet I couldn't see replies to was a thread about them accidentally breaking customer's external-facing sites by mistake when they took out the news widget, not that he's defining "removed this widget" as "breaking customer sites".
On the other hand, oh, come on!
But by dragging thousands of developers into a pissing match and unilaterally breaking the update process for 1.5M sites without warning, he’s making the case that WordPress is unstable.
Leadership matters. I hope WordPress gets the chance to find new leaders before it dies a slow death. The web needs WordPress to be great and right now it isn’t.
Every time he posts or speaks, he does more damage to his reputation and that of WordPress. His lawyers have probably told him to shut up, but he seems like he’d make a miserable know-it-all client.
But that's just not something you get to control when you license your software as GPLv2. Some people are gonna use it in ways you don't like.
He should have just done an marketing campaign about why you should host with Wordpress.com instead of WP Engine. Instead he's torched an insane amount of goodwill for seemingly no return.
It's like the difference between getting an account on a Mastodon instance versus a specialized Mastodon instance hoster.
WP Engine is a pure commercial WordPress hosting service, while WordPress.com also has a personal blogging service stapled on.
Lol.
That sounds like something no lawyer has ever said.
Lawyers advise you on what is legal and what isn’t, and what opens you up to liability.
He seems quite confused.
Two things that are true:
- Big businesses built off the back of an open source software should absolutely chuck a bit back to said software
- Matt is messing with peoples' bread and butter to win his little slap fight which is a complete dickhead move.
WP is GPLv2. Is WP Engine distributing their modifications without releasing their changes?
No trademark issue, license seems fine. From what I can tell this is nothing.
This really doesn't seem to be much about Trademarks, but more like what every other open source project complains about, that someone ELSE made a ton of money from the open source project, not them (even though that someone else is following the original license).
Couldn't they have just changed the license to WP? It wouldn't have affected most customers.
Personally, I don't care either way, I don't like either party.
Automattic isn't a good steward of WP and has a lot of conflict of interest that they don't want to acknowledge and WP decisions are "what benefits wp.com" first.
WP Engine is an aggressive sales company that also has hosting attached. They're extremely overpriced, the GoDaddy of WP Hosting. Whenever I hear somebody uses them it's a strong indicator that they're making enough money but have no technical knowledge on the team.
Following the money brings clarity. It's pretty obvious that .com controls .org.
There's also the question of who would relicense it. Automattic doesn't own the WordPress trademarks and if there were a contributor agreement, it would likely be assigning the code to the WordPress Foundation, not Automattic.
The WordPress Foundation non-profit doesn't have a good incentive to put a restrictive license on it. Part of the problem is that the WordPress Foundation doesn't seem to be truly independent of the for-profit Automattic. The point of creating a non-profit to hold the IP of an open source project is to prevent stuff like this from happening.
Actually, they own an exclusive license to the commercial exploitation of the WordPress trademark, including sublicensing rights. Given to them for free by the WordPress Foundation. The licensing rights could mean millions for the foundation, but it's all funneled straight to Automattic.
Yep, truly independent foundation.
Not just every WordPress contributor, but every b2/cafelog contributor pre-fork too, since WordPress is a fork of b2/cafelog in the first place:
https://wordpress.org/book/2015/11/the-blogging-software-dil...
If that code was all entirely rewritten and replaced by now, and no original b2/cafelog code remains in the WordPress codebase, then I would expect that modern WordPress is unaffected by the original b2/cafelog copyright and license. But I am not a lawyer.
The abbreviation “WP” is not covered by the WordPress trademarks, but please don’t use it in a way that confuses people. For example, many people think WP Engine is “WordPress Engine” and officially associated with WordPress, which it’s not. They have never once even donated to the WordPress Foundation, despite making billions of revenue on top of WordPress.
Someone should have stopped him from making the rambling statements he's made.
If it's a trademark dispute, limit the the public statements to the trademark issue. Don't muddy the waters with demands for revenue share or upstream code contributions.
Their messaging around this has been messy and rambling. The drowning out any point they're trying to make with their own messaging.
Who can say the offer "WordPress" hosting? How much do they have to pay? That question was dodged several times in the interviews I've listened to.
If it's a trademark issue, make the claims and let the courts figure it out.
Stay focused or stop talking.
WordPress is the name of the software that they provide services about. There is no way to control who can simply state that fact.
Remember he only just now updated that policy to say that, and tried to make it retroactive.
https://joshcollinsworth.com/blog/fire-matt Scroll down or search to "But Matt wasn’t done."
https://adland.tv/wordpress-shuts-down-several-feminist-blog...
2018 is a long time ago, and an honest mistake false positive once in a while is no crime, but I still don't see any excuse for the lack of integrity to do something like modify terms after the fact and yet still try to apply them retroactively.
That's not an accident or a mistake. It is dishonest, deliberate, and part of a consistent pattern with today.
The creator of WordPress would undoubtedly be extremely disappointed… they should have achieved much greater success.