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Comment by eykanal | Hacker News Reader

I've never seen a plumber upset that not everyone they meet knows how to do basic plumbing. Chefs don't get mad that people they meet can't cook a fancy souffle. Why is it that so many programmers expect the world to understand computers?

Yes, people use computers daily. They also use telephones, cars, and projectors. They make use of cd players, mp3 players, and water fountains. Do you think that, back in the '30s, everyone who used the then-new FM radio had any idea how the hell it worked? Most people who watch movies don't know jack about how to produce, or act, or edit, or manipulate film.

Kids aren't learning about computers because most kids don't care about computers. That's just fine. Focus on those who care.

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> I've never seen a plumber upset that not everyone they meet knows how to do basic plumbing. Chefs don't get mad that people they meet can't cook a fancy souffle. Why is it that so many programmers expect the world to understand computers?

Because computers are tools, and we'd like people to be independent and to be able to use their tools efficiently.

How much does a plumber charge to change a $0.25 washer?

Some people have a bunch of data, and they need to do stuff to it, but they have no idea how to start or what to do. Not just 'how to create a pivot table' but 'what icon do I click on?'.

I agree that it's not a good idea to think that everyone can pipe sed and awk together, or can create amazing VBA tools, but it'd be nice if people could open a program and use it well.

You know, how to enable people to use their tools efficiently? Make it useable. Make a great UI so the users don't have to think "how do I do X in this program?", don't have to learn to program so they can fix your lame program, but can just use it.

This. And if they want to learn the what's and why's and get to the guts of it, they'll find a way outside of that UI as I'm sure that's how we all got to where we are in web, because we care and we're curious and neither of those traits are disappearing in kids.

> Because computers are tools, and we'd like people to be independent and to be able to use their tools efficiently.

Hence the drive towards UI simplicity.

Computers are not tools. Computers are platforms for which you can build and use tools. The programs, such as MS Office and Facebook, are the tools. Most people are content to just use tools, not build them.

>Computers are not tools.

I think this is a part of the trend that we're criticizing. Computers use to be tools, and to use them one necessarily had to learn something about them. Over the last decade or so, the computer has been transformed into a platform, one in which the user has decreasing control over. Instead of empowering its users its become yet another mechanism for marketing. Sure, the rising tide has lifted all boats, its users have become more empowered. But there was so much more potential (and still is). We're not seeing this potential being explored in the current era of startups (or at least they're not front and center).

Considering that the foundation of our realities is information, it seems foolish not to educate the masses on how to manipulate it efficiently. Here we have a cheap, general purpose information transforming machine and yet we have dimwits arguing that it's not so important to learn how to use them. The only other things which have transformed society as much as these useless machines are writing and the printing press. But we don't ask anyone to learn how to write, now do we?

To put it another way, knowledge is power. Having the ability to use a machine which provides access to, for all intents and purposes, unlimited knowledge is of paramount importance to society in the long term. It's just as important as literacy.

The average person doesn't need to be able to cook a fancy souffle - but how about an omelet? Most chefs I know wish more people had basic cooking skills.

The world would be a much better place if everyone knew the basics of multiple disciplines and had some basic knowledge about how all the machines they use everyday work.

That being said, in the real world people don't give a shit, and the companies that are successful in any industry recognize and accept this fact.

Computer programming is - or should be regarded as - more basic, more fundamental a skill than the ability to use/build/maintain specialized machines. A toaster processes sliced bread; whereas a computer processes information, which is global, ubiquitous and open-ended in its application.

The ability to write a computer program is too broadly powerful across a whole swath of human endeavours to keep in the hands of professional programmers, in the same way that the ability to read and write was too powerful to keep in the hands of professional scribes.

Our present-day society is inconceivable without the advent of social literacy, starting in the 15th century and accelerating through the 18th and 19th centuries. If we allow programming to become a disciplinary cul-de-sac instead of spreading it as widely as possible, what potential future society are we cutting off?

Let's not care about companies, let's care about people, human beings. Is it better for your health and independent and well-being to know how to cook the food you eat or to just buy burgers?

Same for computers. Say you have kids, will you not at least try to push them toward controlling such important and intimate things as their computers or phones? Would you agree with them when they tell you they don't care how Facebook work, what info they have, what other choice are available? All these means they need to be computer literate. If they don't they will be slaves.

You haven't? Man, every "car person" I know gets pissed off whenever someone goes to a mechanic for an oil change or tire change...

Touche.

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