UK workers must keep all customer tips under new law
bbc.co.uk
bbc.co.uk
If anything, tipping culture seems to have made it so that uber drivers feel compelled to make small talk or a waiter feels compelled to keep interrupting us to make it clear they’re being attentive, which is making the experience worse not better (IMHO).
And TBH, of the hundreds of times I've eaten ANYWHERE in North America, the service has been exactly the same: "here is your food. [later]. Are you enjoying your food. [later]. Did you like the food? Okay, where's the 15% tip?"
To travel some place and then complain about the local customs there is just a rude if a someone goes from France to the US as if someone goes from the US to France. If you don't like the local culture in some spot, just stop going there.
In many jobs in the US, the tips ARE the salary, and the customer is the employer just as much as the owner of the place is. And if you (as a customer) don't pay for the work in such a setting.
Now if the locals don't like this arrangement, they should work to change it. But when we are visiting, we should try to adapt.
Partly for historical reasons. But also because it is one of the types of jobs where this actually works. (Because customers can experience the result of the work directly and because the quality of the work is quite variable.)
Other professions have other ways to provide incentive based salary. Lawyers, MD's, consultants, musicians or tech workers all have ways to (at least in some positions) profit from their own work directly. Construction workers may have team based rewards based on meeting deadlines, etc.
Then there are a few professions where such rewards don't make sense, including those you bring up. These are generally jobs where the quality of the work is either not very variable, is hard to measure or does not connect to any revenue streams. For such jobs, fixed salaries are required.
Typically, though, for most professions, fixed salary models tend to provide lower AVERAGE salary payments for those who opt for fixed salary. The risk involved in variable pay tends to lead to a risk premium benefitting the worker. And it may ALSO benfefit the employers, which in turn over time will result in an increased demand for workers.
Europe has a model with less incentive based compensation. Europe also has (on average) about 2x the US unemployment rate and about 50% of the salaries in many growth sectors for those who DO have a job.
In return, Europe DOES manage to have a lower salary gap between the warehouse worker and the software developer, but not necessarily a higher salary (even by PPP) than the US for the warehouse worker.
No, it does not work. Good service is not babysitting customers so that they are sure every minute that you’re there to justify your tips. Decent service is the baseline expectation when you go to a restaurant. I don’t tip my phone’s maker when it turns on, it’s stupid. The social aspects completely decouple the tip and the quality of service.
Well, I was a local in North America for decades and was ALSO a local in Australia for a long time where there was no tipping. So there.
Besides, I disagree. I think complaining about culture is fine. Culture should not be above criticism. After all, if other people write their perspectives, both positive and negatives, then it makes it easier whether to know when to visit. I have no idea why human behaviour should be above criticism just because it's been shoehorned into the nebulous concept of culture.
A lot of people here in Europe, perhaps particularily so in France, do NOT think it's ok when American's on vacation overtly behave rudely and without respect. One attitude they tend to bring (that is more true in the US), is that "the customer is always right", and that the staff should just suck it up when they're being rude about it.
Such Americans simply do not grasp that the small family restaurant in rural France has people in it that are NOT driven primarly by short term profit or tips, but (compared to a similar place in the US) more about tradition, professional pride and simply having an enjoyable time at work.
The same is true many places in Asia.
My point is that this goes both ways. That 21-year old waitress in that Hell's Kitchen restaurant has a completly different life situation. She may struggling to pay for her University fee, not to mention rent, and does not intend to stay a waitress forever.
So when the German tourist is offended when she (having experienced Europeans before) makes a point of making a circle around the 18% recommended tip when handing him the check, it's for good reason.
Also, just because even the base price of that steak he just ate is already higher than it would be in Germany, costs in Manhattan are correspondingly higher, so that price barely covers the expenses BEFORE the waitress can receive any kind of salary.
So in your particular case, you're not like that German. You simply favor a slightly different political/economic system than what is currently in place in the US.
Also, chances are that you WOULD pay that tip without making a scene.
Who said anything about making a scene? I was talking about complaining here, as it seemed to be implied by one of the GPs. I'm not a social dolt. If I think the price is too expensive, I simply don't visit the establishment in the first place.
Also, plenty of software developers work as consultants on some kind of commission model where part or all of their salary is some percentage of what they're able charge their customer.
Perhaps the customer doesn't pay the invoice, perhaps they don't want to hire you at all. But if you do a good job and manage keep the customer happy, you're likely to make a better wage than in a similar position with a fixed salary.
Nah. Moaning and complaining is a human right. What’s wrong is to expect the locals to care or change their ways for you. But it goes both ways. I tip when I am in the US because that’s how it’s done. I will never stop saying how stupid, inefficient and unfair to the staff that is. Or arguing vehemently against anything like that taking root here.
"pre-tip" is particularly insane because it comes across as "don't spit on my food" extortion.
I'm sure there are food outlets in your area who would like to hire wait staff with a will to succeed regardless of the customer's attitude and behaviour.
Better establishments might equal better pay and even some support from the company that's not been fought for by unions and lawyers; just common decency to the people who are the face of their business.
I may be imagining a utopian ideal there, but it never hurts to encourage someone, which was my intention in this post.
> I may be imagining a utopian ideal there
You definitely are. Most people need some kind of incentive to do their best. What those incentives are, vary wildly. In a family restaurant, the whole family may share in the pride of providing a great experience (and maybe get rewards from online reviews).
Tipping is simply ONE approach. Part of a tipping culture (when it works) is that tips is not something "extra", no more than smiling or saying "thank you, it was delicious" or any other way of showing appreciation during the social interaction involved in the transaction.
To not tip in such a setting (without good reason, such as bad service), is simply to behave in a rude uncultured (relative to the local culture) way.
Like drinking wine from the bottle and eating the steak with your hands in France.
Seeing a comment on there from the CEO of TiPJAR, which is a private company that provides a "tronc" service to allow allocation of tips at arms-length from the employer, services which are specifically called out in the statutory guidance, left a slightly bitter taste.
100% Agree that people should just be paid more. But it's not that simple ...
Raising wages has an inflationary effect on the prices in the restaurants/bars. And the people who suffer from inflation are the minimum wage earners who spend proportionally more of their disposable income on essentials like groceries.
I worked as a waiter/bartender for 3 years in college and the wages were terrible! But I always made an effort and customers gave me tips. Saved those tips to buy my first iMac which I used to learn higher-paying skills.
Having been a service industry worker and now in a different income bracket I always tip for good service. Without tips many people in the service sector could not get by.
Again, I don't like this system; and would welcome a viable alternative!
If a government mandates a higher wage or if 90% of a society voluntarily contributes tips, the effect is the same.
At the end of the day, the customer is likely paying an increased amount for a service being rendered. Except a mandatory wage increase may have the business reduce their margins while a tip puts the pressure directly on patrons.
I did tipped service work. It’s time to discourage general adoption.
Is good service only available to those who tip?
Why are there so many hidden costs in American pricing? Why can't everything be upfront and honest and transparent?
Whose responsibility is the welfare of the staff?
Why do only waitstaff get the tips when the less-visible staff also contribute to good service?
I don't think that's necessarily true. In Japan tipping is a faux pas, and in fact restaurants will often return or refuse to accept them, yet the service sector is massive and the quality of service tends to be extraordinary. Much of Europe is similar, especially in eastern and southern parts. In China tipping is just not done...
How is it that they all get by, but the US service sector can't?
But using Japan as an example for this is like a red herring. The US/UK is not Japan. Just lookup "Cheating culture in Japan": https://www.reddit.com/r/japan/comments/5cnmy8/cheating_cult... would that work in US/UK? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ (hint: no!)
lol, no. They're paid less, on average.
https://www.erieri.com/salary/job/waiter-waitress/japan
https://www.talent.com/salary?job=waiter
At worst, it's comparable. You could make a complicated argument that costs of living in Japan are lower so on pseudo-PPP terms they're paid better, but this is by no means clear.
> Japan as an example for this is like a red herring. The US/UK is not Japan. Just lookup "Cheating culture in Japan"
The red herring is raising totally unrelated behavior from a Reddit post.
In truth, most of Asia's tipping culture is much like Japan's. China's 1.4B denizens don't tip. I'm in Croatia and nobody tips here, either. It's only expected of tourists.
I don't understand why you are conflating inflation of sit-down restaurant and bar prices (which doesn't affect poor people) and inflation of grocery prices (which does). You don't tip at checkout at a grocery store or a liquor store.
That implies consumers spend differently if they know the actual cost ahead of time, otherwise service inclusive pricing would make no difference. ie the whole industry is exploiting anchoring effects.
Removing anchoring effects would make restaurant businesses less profitable, and consequently the properties that host them less valuable, so lower rents.
There are clear incentives for pushing an inflation narrative.
Having to replace such performance/luck based incentives with fixed salaries would make a lot of business unviable, and restrict growth and innovation.
Furthermore, the current workforce in places where such compensation is common will often have self selected for the kind of people who prefer this model (due to the potential upside, excitement, feeling of purpose, etc) over the safety of a fixed salary.
So banning tipping in such markets tend to have a similar reaction as would forcing such incentive models on markets where people are used to a fixed salary.
And yet the tiny check in lady in Tokyo airport came from behind her desk to lift my suitcase onto the scales.
Peformance bonuses paid by the employer when you reach targets set by them is somewhat common and could be used in hospitality too.
However, the majority of jobs do not have such performance incentives other than keeping your job if you keep up your end of the bargain, and possibly getting promoted to a higher role if you show certain skills.
The hospitality sector does not have to differ.
In fact, I'm not sure I know of a single global top 100 company (by market cap) that is a European tech company founded in the past 40 years.
Compensation models is almost certainly part of the reason, in addition to taxation, regulations, culture, etc.
What you could argue is that because these companies are so successful, they can now offer disproportionately large compensation packages including stock options which draw talent from the rest of the world to keep them large. This in turn fuels the startup economy as investors dream of having a big share of the next big thing.
I don't think it makes sense as a justification for why these companies grew so big and attracted so much money, causing a gap in startup environments. It would at most explain why they stay so big.
From the 100 most valuable companies on Earth, there are maybe 20-30 US (rough guess) tech companies that have been started in the the past 40 years, and several of them in the past 20.
And approximately 0 European ones.
And while this isn't PROOF of causation, it surely increases the posterior probability of causation, regarles of what your prior was before adding this evidence.
Like many places in the US, or in popular vacation resorts even in Europe.
On the other hand, systems based on fixed salaries favors more established businesses (like McDonalds) or, at the opposite end of the spectrum, family run businesses where family member salaries are set more to minimize overall tax burden more than to compensate performance.
Just like French small/-ish restaurants may be an excellent solution in the French countryside, the US model can work well in Miami or some steakhouse on Route 66.
So this is to allow new businesses to start easy by not having to pay their employees if there isn't business? Imagine if other industries picked up on that, stopped paying living wages and instead made it every employees job to attract business and satisfy customers themselves in order to be able to pay rent.
Starting any business implies up front investments and a gamble on its future profitability. In any other industry, if you lacked the cash to pay salary you'd have to offer things like equity to share both risk and gain with the first few employees. Using tips mean you only share a high risk of them not being able to make a living off this new unproven business, without any benefit other than "if everything goes well and we're lucky, you'll be able to pay rent!".
If we wanted performance-driven salary, then a living base wage and a pre-agreed performance bonus with no concept of tip would be more appropriate.
Recently, there was a lot of focus on tips due to how Square/Cube/whatever has affected tipping, and it appears that the consensus in the US is not in favor of tipping.
Do you think the 18-year-old getting a job serving burgers and beers at the recently started sports bar cares about the equity? Most of them would much rather receive $200 in tips on a good night over POSSIBLY having some stake in that bar 10 years down the road.
(The one exception I can see, is if the business is owned by her parents.)
An equity as a model is suited to another type of demographic working in a different kind of business.
Not the tech sector or startups in particular, but I think that the incentive culture in general (e.g. stock options for management, bonuses in banking) has been very harmful and it would be great to get rid of it. It encourages short termism, and manipulating the numbers. Goodhart's/Campbell's law (not sure which is more accurate here).
I could ban it, I would.
> I could ban it, I would.
But THIS I really have a problem with. Outright banning practices you don't like is something I would see as an authoritarian streak.
Kind of like how authoritarian religious people want to ban gay sex or authoritarian capitalists want to ban labor unions.
Taxes are those costs that are slapped on the price to cover payments to the government.
If a customer provides tip with the intention that it sould go the the waiter or at least the on-duty local staff, but the tip is taken by upper management or the corporation, I see that as deceitful communication, bordering on fraud.
I would support a law where the default is that tips are kept by the person receiving the payment and that any tip sharing model in any business is voluntary for ANY employee, and where ANY employee should be free at any time to withdraw from such tip sharing.
Basically, this would be a return to the cash based model, where tips were handed over physically to the waiter as a personal transaction between the customer and that individual.
If this means more tips for waiters and less for chefs, then either compensate through base pay or provide a way for the customers to explicitly ask that the tip should be shared with the kitchen staff.
I mean, I know they're keen on imitating the US eversince they lost their empire...
Always a fixed percentage of the bill.
However it’s normally included in the bill as service charge so you just pay the bill and don’t have to decide how much to leave yourself. In London it’s usually 12.5%.
You are allowed to ask them to remove service charge from the bill but it’s an uncommon thing to ask.
It’s just like I would say „just write good software why do you keep producing bugs lmao“ - sure that would be nice but reality gets in the way.
The cook has a larger outcome on your experience dining out than the person who carries the food but they don't get tips.
No, I've personally worked multiple food service jobs where I didn't get tips.
You're the one just assuming things you know little about, because I did all my food service jobs in New York, which prohibits back of staff from being included in tip pools, by law.
I also worked at places that didn’t include the team in tips or had no tips at all - usually they also had a very toxic workplace in other areas unrelated to tipping