More annoying macOS 15 Sequoia prompts: Bluetooth | Hacker News Reader

More annoying macOS 15 Sequoia prompts: Bluetooth

lapcatsoftware.com

68 pointslatexr53 comments

He notes in another article[1] that macOS turns on BT on every update, and apparently the behaviour is "functioning as intended" (Apple's own words). What's not answered is why Apple do this. Possibly as trivial as avoiding bug reports or support issues about BT devices or features not working? Apple already control the stack from hardware to software so it's hardly like they would need a nefarious reason to do this.

[1] https://lapcatsoftware.com/articles/bluetooth.html

Also is this the same Jeff Johnson of rpm5 "fame"?

Their "Find My" network relies on many Apple devices having Bluetooth enabled and reporting seen device names to Apple (in some anonymized way), as far as I understand. If that's right, then Apple is interested in people not turning off Bluetooth.

Macs without input devices (Mac Mini/Studio, iMac) are stationary devices. The devices that primarily contribute to accurate Find My info must be portable, since fixed locations wouldn't help much.

Apart from Mouse and Keyboard, I think copy and pasting between iPhone and Mac also requires Bluetooth? And AirDrop?

I can see why Apple want this to be enabled.

macOS updates

1. Re-active Wifi

2. Re-active Bluetooth

3. Replace with no backup root network filtering rules file: /etc/pf.conf

They also replace the pam config file, which disables using TouchID for sudo authentication!

There is now a `/etc/pam.d/sudo_local` that gets queried and survives updates.

There is a template here: `/etc/pam.d/sudo_local.template`, copy that one to `/etc/pam.d/sudo_local` and remove the `#` before `auth sufficient pam_tid.so`.

> Also is this the same Jeff Johnson of rpm5 "fame"?

No.

OK sorry for misattributing!

I wouldn't be surprised if the Bluetooth was left as a major vector of attack for people with provided exploits.

I wonder if there were a lot of support calls about people whose keyboards wouldn’t connect, etc.

Unlike a touch screen device, folks may not understand that disabling Bluetooth for no reason has input consequences

Exactly this. Like if you're in the 95th percentile on tech literacy it makes no sense. Congrats. Here's a medal. If you're in the 30th percentile and you turn everything off because you're paranoid about stuff you don't understand being turned on but you don't realize you're about to disconnect your mouse it may at least give pause.

Yes that’s definitely why this has been added. It’s kind of discourteous though to people who don’t fall into that category. Why not offer an I know what I’m doing switch that needs to be activated with a series of CLI commands with big warnings.

you're using applianceOS, power users are not the target market, people with too much money are

I’m a power user, but I also like not worrying about whether my WiFi will work today. And I don’t like dealing with whatever WSL thinks about file permissions in this version.

There doesn’t exist anything else at the developer-friendliness / price / build quality point Apple’s machines exist at.

It's just bad design. Rather than a confirmation/warning/nag Apple could've altered the existing UI to make it clear what devices would be disabled. Show a connected device count next to the on/off switch with little mouse/keyboard/etc icons. The interface should be clear, discoverable, and consistent. It shouldn't throw unanticipated popup windows and warnings at the user.

So there's multiple comments already saying this, but I don't understand how what you wrote jives with the paragraph of that post:

>"The prompt warns that I "won't be able to use a Bluetooth keyboard or mouse," despite the fact my Mac mini already has a USB keyboard and mouse plugged in. Indeed, the Mac isn't using any Bluetooth devices, and macOS knows this but doesn't care. Moreover, the Bluetooth prompt appears even when all Bluetooth-related features are disabled such as AirDrop and Handoff. There's no "intelligence" to the prompt."

macOS, like Linux, Windows, FreeBSD or whatever, knows what the device tree looks like. It knows whether there are any BT devices paired, what their capabilities are, whether the input peripherals are USB or not. Can you explain why making a prompt conditional on whether it'd disconnect the last input devices or not would not have reduced support calls perfectly well? Why do you think that paragraph is wrong, and macOS must be stupid and generic with a warning regardless?

Some devices report as keyboards in macOS but are not. My Logitech mouse for whatever reason shows as both. I’m assuming it’s the way Logi handles the extra buttons.

Seems to be a warning for Macs without a built-in keyboard only. Getting it on my Mac mini but not my Air. Seems to be a good idea for that situation. Bet there are more casual users using bluetooth for keyboard/mouse/trackpad than usb.

Sounds plausible, but as the author noted the OS has the knowledge whether you’re using a Bluetooth keyboard/mouse or not but it doesn’t matter - it shows that dialog even if you have wired peripherals plugged in. It’s dumb.

This is a sign that the company has challenges making 'not dumb' software which was its key differentiator.

> The prompt warns that I "won't be able to use a Bluetooth keyboard or mouse," despite the fact my Mac mini already has a USB keyboard and mouse plugged in.

Someone decided this is how this should work, and either no one along the way pointed out that it was stupid, or they did and was ignored. It gets tricky knowing what's right when profits come before users.

Sure, I get the hate on HN, but seriously - what portion of users do you think don’t know that disabling Bluetooth will cut off their mouse? I bet it’s a most of them.

The main gripe here is really there is no way for power users to avoid the prompt.

Unless it's guarded behind SIP, I'd expect there to be a key with a non-obvious name that you can change using "defaults".

Odd, this is not happening here on macOS 15.0.0. Turning bluetooth off either via the system settings app or the menu bar icon shuts off bluetooth immediately with no prompt for me...

Laptop or desktop? The prompt is only for Macs without a built-in keyboard and pointing device.

Aha. This was on a laptop. I missed that distinction.

I'm fairly certain this isn't new in macOS 15, I could have sworn I've seen this on 13 + 14

Wow, you're right about macOS 14, or at least macOS 14.7, but not about macOS 13.

The Mac mini in question has macOS 11 through macOS 15 installed on separate APFS volumes. I just tried booting into 14 and 13.

I'm not sure why I never noticed this before on Sonoma. Perhaps it was added in a later minor update, but I have no idea.

I can't reproduce on Ventura.

For a privacy conscious company such as Apple, turning off Bluetooth when not needed should be encouraged. Keeping it on 24/7 makes you trackable, you're broadcasting a unique identifier.

> a privacy conscious company such as Apple

[citation needed]

They have a whole page dedicated to it [0]. To be fair, I mean it with a bit of sarcasm. How can you collect so much data and call it privacy. I definitely believe they do a better job than most companies though, even though I dislike how aggressively they are pushing sync features.

[0] https://www.apple.com/privacy/

Since when Apple is a privacy conscious company.

How can you argue they’re not? Even if you think everything they say is bullshit and that they spy on you actively, being conscious of something means you’re aware of it, that you know it exists and what it is. Apple is certainly conscious of privacy, they don’t shut up about it.

https://www.apple.com/privacy/

If you believe them or not, that’s a whole different matter.

It's on by default because they assume you want to use your airpods and other apple peripherals.

If stuff like this bothers you, don't use apple.

It appears that the choice is to either annoy people because they really do want to turn off Bluetooth or to let some people shoot themselves in the foot. They cannot turn on Bluetooth because they turned Bluetooth off. As a person who has never, ever shot myself in the foot - yes, I am that good - in my opinion all computer installations should begin with a choice that reads something like this:

* Provide absolutely no protections because I have never made a mistake such as typing "rm -rf" while in the "/" directory. And there is absolutely no truth to the rumor that I have flushed a watch down the toilet twice by failing to secure the watch band.

* Make your best attempt at providing me with some reasonable protections so I do not shoot myself in the foot. I accept that even the best solution will be annoying at times and will still be annoyed.

[edit to make it clear that I did not flush two watches one time, but rather I flushed one watch two different times]

> It appears that the choice is to either annoy people because they really do want to turn off Bluetooth or to let some people shoot themselves in the foot.

False dichotomy. They could provide a warning with a "Do not ask me again" checkbox. That would be acceptable.

Also, there was no possibility of footgunning in this case, because there were no active devices or services requiring Bluetooth.

Funniest thing, Bluetooth is not really off, even after you disabled it. Mac will still ping other devices, report nearby AirTags and so on. This settings just disables UI notifications!

The only reliably way to disable Bluetooth on Mac is a shotgun and shovel!

Pretty good release it seems if internet complains about stuff like this.

I get super annoyed by this but on iOS. And the fact that you need to press several times to actually turn it off instead of 'pause' from using it makes it even worse :@

I wrote a shortcut that checks the input device and if its not connected to anything to hard-off bluetooth

It definitely is annoying. I’m sure they’ve made it for Find My to work most of the time. I wouldn’t mind bluetooth being on all the time but if you have AirTag nearby it drains the battery pretty aggressively.

Here's a guess: no Bluetooth means no tracking of those Airtags Apple likes to sell, hence Bluetooth Shall Be Enabled At All Times.

This is HN. We can do better than posting guesses.

No, we can not do better but we can speculate - if you prefer that word - as to the reason why this was implemented. It is reminiscent of the abundance of prompts in earlier iterations of Windows which made it the subject of jokes like these:

   You moved your mouse,
   are you sure you want to move the pointer?

                                [OK] [CANCEL]

It is hard to fathom why Apple - which prides itself on being user-friendly - would go in a similar direction. Absent inside information all we can do is speculate (or 'guess') as to their reasoning. Unless you have inside information it is hard to do more than guessing why they implemented this user-hostile prompt. There is no similar prompt when you disable WiFi even though that can cost the user money.

User hostile? It’s a warning so people don’t get locked out if they don’t have a wired keyboard. Disabling WiFi doesn’t keep someone from using a computer.

The user hostility lies in the fact that this warning shows up each and every time without the option to keep it from appearing for those who e.g. use USB keyboards.

But it’s really easy to fathom: disabling Bluetooth on a Mac with no other input devices leads to some really nasty support calls.

Imagine trying to tell the kind of person who couldn’t recover from that situation on their own to go find a USB mouse.

IMO hitting CMD+T thinking it'll open a new tab in my browser but it opens the font window (from Mail) is a user-crime.

Then Mail is the currently active application, not your browser.

Older macos had bluetooth->advanced settings to keep bluetooth from turning on if there is no keyboard/etc

A tool like hammerspoon is handy, probably can find a way to keep it how you want.

I just tried to disable bluetooth and no prompt whatsoever appeared. Macbook 16" Max.

Perhaps it only appears if you're using bluetooth keyboard and mouse, which I'm not?

> Perhaps it only appears if you're using bluetooth keyboard and mouse, which I'm not?

No, as the article states, the Mac mini is connected to a USB keyboard and mouse.

The consensus in the comments is that the warning doesn't appear on laptops, which have a built-in keyboard and trackpad.

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