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LG TVs Start Showing Ads on Screensavers

arstechnica.com

47 pointsm46387 comments

And thats why I recommend anybody to never ever connect your new TV to the internet. Just buy an Apple TV. No ads, fast ui, regular updates and overall great experience. I have tried 3 different android tv alternatives with the NV Shield and mibox but the all suffered the same laggy ui, crashes and ads.

Note: You do _need_ an iPad or an iPhone to accept the terms and condition to download apps. I had to go through the trouble to logout my iPad account and then to login my uncles new apple account on my iPad, just so he could use his new Apple TV.

How do I view Jellyfin and SmartTube on an Apple TV?

Infuse app for Jellyfin. It works very well. Afraid I don’t know the other one.

+1 for Infuse, handles streaming Bluray remuxes like a champ and supports Dolby Audio / Vision.

A single board PC or a laptop.

Like me, you use a cheap Kodi box instead of an Apple TV.

But OP's advice still stands: don't connect your TV to the internet.

There’s a fairly good AppleTV Jellyfin app. It’s free.

I don't know what Jellyfin or SmartTube is.. but I do watch videos from other sources such as Samba shares, and for that I use Infuse. The Apple TV app is really good and there's a client for macOS and iOS as well.

Swiftfin https://apps.apple.com/us/app/swiftfin/id1604098728

Has it stopped crashing yet? Honest question, I try it every few months and it always spontaneously combusts in between playbacks (browsing media, when finishing playing, etc.)

I do not remember the time it has ever crashed - and I am quite sensitive to software not working well. I can complain about the strange UI choices but not about the stability. Running this on latest Apple TV 4K

You could try Chromecast. I've used it occasionally, never had any issues with UI, pretty smooth with no lags or crashes. It does have the Jellyfin app on it too.

chromecast (the hardware thingy) has been discontinued

Another vote for infuse

>Note: You do _need_ an iPad or an iPhone to accept the terms and condition to download apps.

I... don't think that's correct. I bought and set up an Apple TV less than a year ago, and I've never owned an iPhone or iPad. I don't remember having to do anything unusual to download apps.

(I did happen to have a pre-existing Apple account from back when I owned a click-wheel iPod, and I used that during set-up. Maybe that's the difference?)

> I did happen to have a pre-existing Apple account

Yes, this is the difference. I was only able to accept the terms and conditions after we got the popup on the iPad. Until then tvOS Apps just did not download without any error message.

You can get same result by just blocking DNS lookups for everything except the sites you want to access. You can go a step forward and only allow traffic to looked up hosts.

Example: https://github.com/AdrianCX/pico_hole

That way you can still use the TV and not have it spy on you, that part is more worrying then the ads:

> It has a partnership with Nielsen that sends automatic content-recognition data gathered from LG TVs to Nielsen

Doing this takes time and energy that I really don't want to spend on a TV that I expect to sit there and do what I want in the first place.

I agree, and I wish manufacturer didn't force this retroactively on already bought items...

Unfortunately, if I were to replace I'm not even sure I can find something that doesn't or won't do this in the future.

So perhaps we'll start seeing consumer routers with this blocking built in. (would be a nice logical add on to help sell them)

One way to look at this is this: unless you bought a very high-end model, the TV you bought was very likely "subsidized" by ad vendors: instead of the TV maker getting all their revenue from your purchase of the TV, they got part of it from advertisers, Nielsen, etc. It's the same way with pre-installed Windows on computers, where Microsoft gets paid by the crapware companies to pre-install their crapware ("trial versions") on new computers hoping buyers will purchase the full versions. Anyway, if your TV purchase was partially subsidized by the ad vendors, then the price for having a TV that works the way you want it to could be said to be that you need to spend extra time and energy to do these workarounds.

Perhaps, though the suggestion of using an Apple TV or equivalent and never connecting the TV to the Internet at all is a far easier thing to manage.

Trying to block things in this way ends up being a whack-a-mole situation, and you're also suck monitoring it forever as the vendor deploys things to bypass any blocks, or adds/changes things.

I've done it in the past though it really is an annoying thing to monitor and keep up with. I guess you can use public block lists that can take care of some of it for you.

Certainly, there's different workarounds that can be used to solve this problem, and they all have their advantages and disadvantages. Buying an AppleTV or equivalent will cost more money and may have its own drawbacks (can't install SmartTube on AppleTV for instance), whereas for instance setting up a PiHole server to filter traffic to your TV is probably more work but for less money (assuming you already have something to run it on).

The way I see it, there really isn't a perfect solution for any of this: you can't just go out and buy devices that do exactly what you want them to, because vendors don't want to sell those to you (unless you're a billionaire perhaps, and willing to pay truly absurd prices for bespoke custom solutions): vendors want to make a profit, and they've found they can do that more easily these days by selling stuff to consumers at razor-thin (or below-cost even) margins, and then making money after the sale with advertising and spying. It's like the Gillette razor-and-blade model. So it's up to us (consumers, collectively) to come up with workarounds and modifications and other technological solutions and share them with each other.

> Trying to block things in this way ends up being a whack-a-mole situation, and you're also suck monitoring it forever as the vendor deploys things to bypass any blocks, or adds/changes things.

Just a note, for the linked item I haven't change anything in 2 years and it's still working fine.

That's because it's an allow list, nothing gets through unless it's specifically towards netflix domains and addresses.

It's much easier to manage then the reverse as you noted.

Sure, it could be defeated with effort but it would be visible (updates available or ads or similar), and at that point you start investigating.

It also requires some initial effort to set up if you want anything else from the TV (say youtube or amazon prime and so on)

Fair. I don't think I have the personal will to curate an allowlist :P

the Nielsen thing feels like it's not compatible with EU regulations, is it?

Quick search says they've been doing it for a while: https://www.tomsguide.com/us/lgtv-smart-tv-monitoring,news-1...

> You can get same result by just blocking DNS lookups for everything except the sites you want to access.

"Just."

Are you willing to configure such a setup for my mom and Aunt Millie? And provide ongoing technical support?

I have configured this for family and have had no complaints so far, and can walk them through disabling it if it ever gets to it.

Steps are pretty simple:

- build and dump image on a 7$ raspberry pi pico, put that on the network.

- Configure TV DNS server to point to the pico.

- Configure router to block DNS traffic entirely from TV.

- Test

If it works, then it should work a long time. TV won't get any updates, netflix doesn't seem to cycle or add new domains.

> Note: You do _need_ an iPad or an iPhone to accept the terms and condition to download apps. I had to go through the trouble to logout my iPad account and then to login my uncles new apple account on my iPad, just so he could use his new Apple TV.

Classic Apple. "Don't you dare buy our hardware unless you're ready to go all in and buy all of our ecosystem!". Does the Apple TV have similarly bad UX as an iPad, in that if for some reason it can't install an app it just spins a wheel forever, without any feedback about what's wrong? I had that when trying to install Apple TV+ (yes, they suck at naming things) on an iPad, it was failing because I had no payment method set up, but graciously refused to tell me why. Similarly, Apple TV+ has a fun bug that if you try to download too many things at the same time (say, you're at the airport and want to download a season of a series before a flight), after 2-3 it fails with "download failed" and the only solution is a full restart of the iPad.

For all of those, there were years' old forum posts describing the bugs and the "solutions".

Apple is always pushing customers to buy more Apple hardware, it's not even subtle anymore.

Need to register an already bought Mac to your MDM? Have to buy an iPhone to install Apple Configurator for that.

Need to register an already bought iPhone/iPad to your MDM? Have to buy a Mac to install Apple Configurator for that.

I've been using NV Shield Pro for 3 years, streaming from a self hosted Jellyfin collection. Unless I'm compelled to, I will never buy anything from Apple in the future.

I bought an NVIDIA Shield at a nice discount during a sale, but unfortunately ended up taking it back to the store - it was not mentioned anywhere on the packaging that you cannot use the device without signing into a Google account. Wasn't too happy to discover this!

I was a loyal Shield Pro user for years until they started throwing ads on the home screen. Sure you can tinker with it, use a piHole or a custom homescreen. I ended up giving it to a friend and buying an Apple TV

No thanks, the last thing I want is having multiple remotes for my TV experience. My LG CX is ad free, smooth, and has all the apps I need - I'll keep it for as long as it works.

The only time I use the actual remote for my TV is when I want to fiddle with the TV color & brightness settings, or switch to an HDMI input with my laptop (but actually usually I just press the input button on the TV itself in that case), both scenarios are very infrequent; otherwise I basically exclusively use the Apple TV remote, it can turn on and off my TV and otherwise everything just happens inside the Apple TV UI.

HDMI CEC is a bliss. My tv remote manages soundbar and smart streaming box

Xbox can be a pretty good alternative as well. Though unfortunately requires a Microsoft account.

Microsoft authentication flows are an absolute shitshow. I have to auth with GitHub to let my kids play Minecraft ffs. Outrageously bad.

Yeah, it's kind of mind-boggling. I constantly get "here's your 2FA code" to my email, despite using an ultra-long obfuscated email address -- meaning attackers have found some auth endpoint that doesn't require entering the 2FA email address to have the code sent (normally I have to type out the actual destination address before it will send the code). I do what I can to keep my stuff secure, but man, idunno. Systems are only as secure as the weakest link and thus far that's always been the vendor, not me.

> Note: You do _need_ an iPad or an iPhone

Eww

I would rather deal with the LG ads.

Don't they have "connect me!" popup nags?

"...never ever connect your new TV to the internet. ..."

I needed a small HDMI monitor so bought a small Samsung TV at Big Box Store.

It would not function without an Internet connection, could not get past the first power up screen. I returned it to the store.

I wonder if TV manufacturers can be sued for adding crap like this after you already bought the TV.

Presumably not because it's in their T&C's and also it doesn't impact the core functionality of the device.

EU market regulators: "Hold my beer" *cracks knuckles

Only a matter of time before these tvs have built-in cell modems and refuse to work without activation.

Likely they will tunnel all WiFi traffic to avoid pi holes and use their own hard coded DNS.

The clever tricks many people here suggest won’t likely work the next time they need to buy a tv.

That's just FUD. There would always need to be an activation path without internet for places without cell coverage and traffic can be always blocked.

Most of these threads turn up comments like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41657531 which say that the thing you say will never happen has already happened.

I can't find a TV model on Google that mandates Internet connection so I'm sceptical, it's likely just a case of RTFM

the starkest part of this sort of thing is just how there is no shame instinct at the upper levels of Big Company management. you need to internalise that any system that you imagine might be bound by embarrassment or shame at the top is not and won't be.

Getting a $5m bonus is a pretty good way to annihilate shame in most people.

My next TV will likely be an LG because I generally like the price/performance ratio, but it will never be allowed to access the Internet (my current one has LAN à access for HomeKit automation but is blocked at the router).

Yep, after the stories about what TVs were doing with the microphones, I have never put my wifi password in any of my TVs. Yes, that means you need to get a separate streaming box... amazon sticks are cheap and pretty good, apple tv is expensive and great.

I have an LG - 2012ish - and still receiving software updates from LG. I let it connect to the internet, and with the right TV settings, I’ve never seen it show me ads

>2012 >never seen it show me ads

Probably thinks your broke, ha! I joke.

Same, I love LG (I have an LG C3 I got last year). But that thing is never talking to the internet.

I have a 2022 LGTV that asks for spooky permissions. One permission is is ad telemetry. I had it connected through a PiHole for ad blocking my network and noticed it contacting an ad-telemetry endpoint, even though I have that permission denied. I don't remember the name of the company, but they do AI recognition of imagery from your TV to determine ads.

It's also so easy to accept those permissions. Every time an update occurred, it would re-prompt to accept the permission. One false click and you're opt-in.

Which sucks, because if a guest or a kid is forced to go through that workflow, they may not know to decline the permissions.

Total dark pattern. Let me opt-out and then stop nagging me for the permission over and over.

Since then, the TV has been banned from the internet. Problem solved.

The experience seems way different on Euro LGs, at least for me. My 2020~ C9 hasn't shown any ads at all ever. Youtube App's own recommendations in the app menu are awful though and to be avoided.

Same with a UK LG CX - no ads ever. I wonder if that particular enshittification is limited to US products.

My c. 2022 LG in the UK had something I would describe as ads - don't remember what exactly, but it was the tipping point that got me to get install a pihole

TVs becoming ad platforms is frustrating. Even high-end models are turning into tools for ads and data collection.

If corps had their way, literally every piece of electronics would be an ad platform.

Double dipping with adverts is the way. Amazon, Spotify, dropped them all after they started pushing adverts as well as getting their monthly cost. It's not new -- cable/sky TV was exactly the same (although sky one was the other way round - started with adverts, then added a subscription fee in 1993 [0])

The far bigger problem is that the majority of people accept adverts. They don't consider them a cost. Last time I got a yellow cab in New York it was adverts on a TV screen in the back. I get ubers if I need a cab now.

The future of adverts was accurately predicted in idiocracy [1], and of course Futurama had comentary on this a quarter of a century ago [2]

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3e6XNcDu5fM

[1] https://youtu.be/hj7c0J_V1L8?si=exc_Zsgx07psBMS1&t=5

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPGgTy5YJ-g

Just install a PiHole in your home network.

I've got a Samsung smart TV I purchased a couple of years ago. I've never seen a single ad on it (the drawback is that the TV's app store doesn't work either as it belongs to a domain also used for ads).

When I tried to disable the PiHole for a couple of minutes, I couldn't recognize my TV anymore. Ads in the menu, ads popping up in the corners of the TV, ads everywhere.

It's no coincidence I guess that my smart TV is the main offender when it comes to requests to blocked domains on my PiHole.

Just get a PiHole, and, unless the TV manufacturer refuses to pick the DNS server used in your network, or they've found ways to inject ads without hosting them on blocked domains, you won't get a single second of harassment.

>I've got a Samsung smart TV I purchased a couple of years ago. ... When I tried to disable the PiHole for a couple of minutes, I couldn't recognize my TV anymore. Ads in the menu, ads popping up in the corners of the TV, ads everywhere.

I recommend TCL TVs running GoogleOS (aka Android). I got one a couple of years ago, and honestly it's fine, even without any ad-blocking. The only ads I see are a still ad on the main screen for some new local TV show, and this ad (just a still picture) changes every 5 seconds or so to another one in sequence). It's not even annoying really, and it's the only one. Under this picture is a bar with all the installed apps, so I just hit down-arrow twice to go to there and select either SmartTube or Jellyfin and run that.

Of course, they could send an update later that adds a bunch of really annoying ads, but I haven't seen it yet. It's also possible there's spyware on there capturing my viewing habits, but I'm not sure what it's going to see when all I do on it is use the two apps above.

Anyway, the other nice thing about Android on your TV is that since it's Android, you can pretty easily side-load apps of your choice, including alternative YouTube clients like SmartTube, ReVanced, etc., instead of being limited to apps from the manufacturer's store.

I'm just waiting for the "TV" that doesn't work until you activate it online. I fully expect this is coming, though I'd be glad to be wrong about this. First, normalize everyone giving their wifi credentials to the TV upon buying it, for important/useful functionality. Less and less functionality available prior to "activating", until eventually you can't even use it as a display until activating.

Simultaneously I'm not looking forward to replacing my current TV due to its increasingly-prevalent horizontal black lines (as mentioned at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41655660 )... :(

This is what's happening with Philips Hue light bulbs, switches, etc. First, you could do what you want. Then you needed their stuff to activate all features. In a couple of months, you'll have no choice but to use an account.

Luckily, they still use the Zigbee protocol, so you can set up a Zigbee USB dongle with mosquitto and zigbee2mqtt or Home Assistant and do whatever you want.

No worries. Thanks to Amazon Sidewalk you will not need to enter your WiFi password. The ads will be downloaded via your neighbor’s Alexa.

I think TV's should be completely dumb just a monitor in fact with maybe a lot more HDMI ports. I can attach my own media device, Apple TV, Roku etc no need to paying extra for poor version of these built into the TV.

It was already annoying to disable the (non-ad) screensaver on my (rooted) LG TV, I imagine it won't get any easier.

I wonder if, when Google was trying to make a free OS so it could ensure its services were preinstalled and nagging while avoiding being totally beholden to Apple, it realised that the big appeal to hardware manufacturers who adopted it was that it helped them enshitten things for their users?

If I'm not mistaken, LG uses WebOS, which dates back to the Palm Pre.

Yeh. And it’s very good imho

Smart TVs, and dumb fucks who buy them.

Is this personal attack on consumers really needed, especially here on HN?

Are consumers especially revered and protected around here for some reason I didn't know about?

No that I know, but not insulting people just because you feel "edgy" doesn't mean you're making people "revered and protected" either. It's called decency.

How would you respond to

> Is a personal attack on any group really needed, especially here on HN?

It’s not a personal attack; all I am saying is that we, as a group, as consumers, all too often buy whatever is peddled to us.

“Dumb fucks”, while certainly not a compliment, is what Zuck called Facebook users who trusted the company and shared personal details of their lives.

Considering that the vast majority of TV models are smart, and all of the best quality ones are, and they're cheaper... Insults are useless.

commercial dumb panels are far more expensive and tend to lag behind in actual display technology.

yeah I'll be in the market for a new TV soon, and honestly have no idea what I'm going to buy.

I hate smart TVs getting enshittified, but it seems the alternative is expensive dumb TVs + external stuff with its own problems.

An old monitor hooked up to some low-power little box that "streams" the Internet Archive onto the display over your wifi?

I have exactly that in two rooms and it has some issues. I cannot turn off either display with the remote and I cannot change the volume with the remote in one room.

Because they aren't subsidized by ad revenue

Ad revenue is peanuts - 10% of the total cost according to the report the advertising industry points to

If I buy an ad-laden device for $500 I should be able to buy a non-ad-laden device for $550.

[0] https://investors.vizio.com/news/news-details/2021/VIZIO-HOL...

You can simply not connect it to the Internet. You can also root them (did it to my LG one.)

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