EU Commissioner Will Simply Ignore Any Rejection Of ACTA By EU Parliament
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The end result is that the parliament is basically a farcical attempt to give the appearance of democratic legitimacy to the EU legislative process, but the farce is transparent enough that it just ends up tainting the public perception of the EU institutions.
There are political reasons for this arrangement of course, but I don't want to turn this into (more of) a rant. [EDIT: I end up going into that in this other post: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4161285]
What's the best channel by which to call for that action?
He's said he will ignore the decisons arrived at by the democratically elected representatives of the people. That seems a pretty clear indication to me.
The European parliament can't impreach the commission. What it can do is sack them (but all of them, not just one). No evidence of illegality is needed.
Nothing in what he said indicates he wants to try to overrule the parliament, only that the EU executive branch believes ACTA is important, and so if the current solution is not approved by parliament they want all the information they can on how to make it acceptable.
We might not like that he's likely to try to go back for a second try with what will likely be relatively unsubstantial changes, but it is not unusual for proposals to be revised and revisited.
I have no problem with abusing the law to get rid of him ASAP.
I suspect De Gucht may have overestimated his influence here. He has also perhaps forgotten that his term of office is not so long and that the European Parliament could even hold up the appointment of the next Commission if it wanted to make a point about abuse of authority. (It did hold up the first Barroso commission in 2004, forcing a reshuffle of which commissioner was given which portfolio, so this is certainly not an idle threat for the Parliament to make, either.)
- No constitution right from the beginning.
- Executive can overrule legislative (and even judicative?)
- Legislative can hold up executive meetings (??)
- No, commission can't overrule the EP. The parliament can reject commission-proposed legislation, and it can fire the commission.
edit: see the parliament doing its thing against ACTA here: http://www.rt.com/news/acta-committee-final-vote-365/
So the EP is the one that's accumulating power (which is right, but hasn't gone far enough yet)
"If the Court questions the conformity of the agreement with the Treaties we will assess at that stage how this can be addressed."
While it is possible that he wants to try to weasel a procedural end-run around rejections, what he's actually said does not provide any basis for jumping to that conclusion.
Of the three power bases, only the parliament is democratic, and it has almost no powers. I agree. The way we do politics in Europe, birthplace of democracy, is just sick.
The EU parliament can not be, and is not, the supreme legislative body for the simple reason that the member states are still sovereign, with the ability to withdraw (though there are some legal questions in some member countries about how that would be possible).
It is the same issue facing the US under the Articles of Confederation, where Congress was effectively powerless to do anything without full agreement of the states.
However the EU "worked around" this in part with the Council and Commission functioning as a sort of an "office of the president" (consisting of heads of the member states and the head of the Commission and a separate Council president) and cabinet respectively, with power delegated from the respective governments of the member states rather than from the parliament.
It is a "workaround" for the fact that a federal EU is currently entirely unpalatable to the electorate in most European countries to make the EU governable - ironically because people are worried about giving the EU more power, while the current arrangement is worse in that regard.
I'm sure in every EU country, most voters would prefer it if the unelected commission couldn't overrule the elected parliament.
E.g. under the UK constitution (yes, the UK has a constitution, it is just not codified in a single act) the UK Parliament is sovereign, to the extent that it can not even bind future parliaments.
So without tricky constitutional changes (particularly tricky because parliament has pretty much "bootstrapped" its own constitutional powers in the UK into a position were giving them away again will need to be very carefully structured to stand up in court) it is pretty much impossible to grant the EU parliament any real power.
This is part of why the current structure of the EU uses a web of treaties to bind the executives of the member states in various to seek the passage of local laws to implement EU directives, with convoluted measures to cajole the national legislatives to follow through. It's still not ironclad - plenty of directives languish in national parliaments for years before being implemented (or get implemented with inconsistent differences in different member countries) exactly because the EU has very few means to push it through - but it's a far stronger method than trying to tie the national parliaments with no constitutional support.
Switzerland is a confederation. Its 26 states have a lot of power, through the senate, state majority on national votes as well as sovereign areas like state taxes, education, state traffic. However, within boundaries, the Swiss national parliament can overrule state parliaments any day (and national people votes can overrule pretty much anything anyway).
Switzerland is a confederation in name and by tradition only, but has had all the features of a federation since 1848.
After civil war in 1847, the new constitution was drawn up expressly to create a federal central government to replace the weak old con-federate governments, and to have the cantons cede some of their sovereignty to it, in the same was the US Constitution had the states cede sovereignty in certain areas - the Swiss constitution of 1848 was to a large extent influenced by the US Constitution.
The current constitutions official name even translates to the Federal Constitution of the Swiss Confederation.
If they do have a referendum and the result is not what the EU wants, another is held.
It would be in the EU's interest to start an investigation of Karel De Gucht to determine if this person is bribed and if these proceedings is a result of corruption. The EU would be wise to do so for its own business sake and before it's perception as a democratic body is tarnished in favour of a US-led corrupt legislative-body.
If the EU loses its perception as democratic, chances are that the rich and populous democracies which funds it will be forced to stop doing so. If it's one thing the EU cannot afford right now, that is one of them.
If they perceive their job as "governing this part of the world without paying much attention to what lesser people are saying", then that is partly because we have defined their job in that way. (And, of course, that will attract the wrong kind of people).
Reform is needed.
Unfortunately the EU's track record isn't very good in this regard[1].
> If the EU loses its perception as democratic
I can't speak for everyone but the EU is not a democratic institution (in terms of direct or participatory democracy) and some people understand this.
> chances are that the rich and populous democracies which funds it will be forced to stop doing so.
No, they're forced to fund it whether they want to or not. The entire Euro currency crisis persists because there is no organised or planned way for a country to leave the Euro. In any other situation the PIGGS would've left by now and could've inflated their way out. Instead the Eurozone countries in the north are stuck with the countries in the olive belt for better or worse and it's hurting all sides. Likewise, there is no documented and planned way for a country to leave the EU.
[1] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marta_Andreasen#Concerns_over_E...
Withdrawal from the EU is a right of member states. However, withdrawal from the Eurozone wasn't envisioned or planned for and therefore there is no organized way to leave the Euro monetary zone (Eurozone).
EDIT: Not all EU countries use the Euro and therefore part of the Eurozone.
yes.
> This guy must be corrupt and on someone's pay-list.
No. True believers are far more fanatical/determined/etc than mercenaries. Money is far from the most effective motivator. (Proof sketch - mercenaries will switch sides for money. True believers won't.)
At least that's how humans work.
I don't think techdirt's message "The european government is a corrupt puppet!" is supported by the evidence in this article. Personally the fact that every committe which has reviewed ACTA has advised against it gives me hope.
ACTA can't be modified anymore, it is signed (yet not ratified in the EU)!
Edit: style
While it's not evidence that the whole system is corrupt, it is yet another in the list of examples of the appointed commission attempting to push things past the elected house via subterfuge or repeated attempts, and it leaves a bad taste.
He's saying:
1) They want to find a way to make ACTA work. Because of that, even if the EU Parliament does not agree with its current form, it makes sense for the Commission to move forward with the ECJ, because if the ECJ says its incompatible with EU law, it will need to be changed regardless if it is to be passed, and it makes no sense for them to negotiate a solution with parliament only to find out after that that the ECJ would strike down the whole thing on fundamental questions afterwards.
2) They'll try to find a solution that addresses whatever reasons MEP's give for voting it down (assuming they do). Trying to reach a compromise is hardly an evil fascist dictator method, but standard operating practice. At least it is in Europe, where we're used to having governments that actually cooperate to pass things.
I'm fully in favor of the European Union as a federal state but to achieve this it is mandatory for the European institutions to stop relying on country representatives or people who were just nominated and rely instead on elected people (and their representatives i.e. a prime minister for the European parliament for example), like in any proper democracy.
It is also a clear sign that despite all the efforts put out in the last few years, associations and companies that are willing to protect Internet freedom are not spending enough money and energy on actually doing it. Not nearly as much as the dying copyrighted and closed content industry anyway.
A lot of progress in EU seems to be hampered by OMG NATIONAL IDENTITY, actually, and democratization is just one of those.
If the legislative power were transferred away from the commission to the parliament (where it should be, if EU governance were to follow the standard approach for separation of powers), the individual member states would lose a lot of control. Control they aren't at all interested in relinquishing, as you may imagine.
And that's before even considering making the executive branch (the commission) directly elected.
This is standard practice in all civil service jobs, as well as the judicial branch.
You can't just remove a judge, or a bureaucrat because his party is out of office. Doing so, ensures that there is continuity and stability between governments.
That's because doing this would have the opposite effect. They would be inviting governments to take control of the Internet.
[1] http://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/comments/osobb/after_w...
Watch some of his videos laying into the commissioner(s) at the EU parliament. Quite amusing but it seems to be just what they need and deserve.
Their statement if this is the correct vote you are referring to:
"Whilst we as a group voted against the ACTA Resolution on Wednesday 10th March 2010, we did so on the principle that the ACTA Treaty itself should not exist in any form. It is a catastrophic violation of individual private property. Had we voted to support the Resolution, we would be recognising the existence of such legislation and on that basis we decided not to recognise the Treaty."
But anyway, this is just negotiation what the dude is doing (although not very smart negotiation, imho). The ACTA is dead, it was rejected by a number of country governments, and the EU parliament will probably reject it too.
Btw, the commission is elected, but not directly. It is elected by the governments of the member countries, each representing the people of each country. However, it would be nice to be able to vote for those guys directly. But, because of language problems (english anybody? France? Germany?) that is not (yet) practical.
Massive recession in Germany, Bankrupcy for the southern nations, a few hurt nations (France, Italy, others) closing their borders to try to survive on their own, and the UK surviving as a dependency of the US. With fascist parties triumphing everywhere around (they are already doing 20%+ in a lot of countries, there are even nazis in the Greek parliament now).
And, of course, global economy hurting like never before, since a majority of it still happens in good ol Europe.
Yup. Let's kill the EU.
The latest to win seats in parliament is the Greek Golden Dawn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Dawn_(Greece)
I know of openly fascist Golden Dawn party from Greece. And I think there are Tricolour Flame, New Force and National Social Front in Italy.
There are also plenty of horrible evil parties with a similar agenda (but not identifying as right-wing or fascist) growing like mushrooms all over rest of the Europian continent.
There are a few of them, but far right parties have very little consensus (e.g. maybe 2-3% total), protest voting seem to go in different directions.
By comparison, the hungarian far right is the third party in the parliament, and got a whopping 16%+ in the last elections.
Before EURO 2012 championships everybody interpreted it like nazism and communism symbols are forbidden, but Russian supporters wanted to marsh before their match with communism symbols, and some Polish minister said symbols are OK, only propagating is illegal (probably to appease Russian politicians). And nobody was persecuted for walking with red star/other communism symbols during that march, AFAIK. So now it's open question what's actually allowed.
Funny thing, that some asshole Polish nationalists/hools beaten up a few Russian supporters during that march and their excuse was that Russians had illegal totalitarian symbols, and they were just defending law (police and judges don't support their excuse, I imagine :) ).
I wouldn't agree. For example ultra-right libertarian party doesn't seem like fascist to me. They are all about personal freedom, and nazism/fascism is all about uniting society with one goal againist common enemy.
Then you couldn't have looked too hard. The NPD is present in 2 German Landtage, and most European countries come with their own flavour of right-wing nuts.
Then there is Germany, which has an even more right wing movement called NPD. They clearly position themselves as far-right. They are mostly a party for skinheads/neo-nazi and don't really attract others. This party is considered too radical by most Germans and by all other parties.
Still nothing compared with what's going on Hungary. The problem there is that their nationalist party actually has power and in the recent years they killed off a lot of democratic elements, like the free press.
I know that there also is a nationalist, populist party in Switzerland, but I know nothing about it.
Also there are a few nationalist movements going on in a number of northern Europe countries, like Belgium and in countries where it has reason in more recent history, like Serbia.
It however seems to be a global problem. The US have always been very nationalist and a bit fascist, as you can see by flags everywhere and how important military is there. But it's way harder to distinguish them there, because there is these huge republican party which has the very extreme people, but also very, very liberal ones. Hard to tell whether that's good or bad. Well, you now have stuff like the tea party movement, which can be to compared not with the real nazi-like parties, but at least with the conservative, nationalist populist parties, often using religious symbols. From what I get I think they are really similar to the Austrian FPÖ.
But also Russia and virtually every country has such movements. On one side they have to be there in a democratic society and it's better if they create parties than doing other stuff, but on the other hand it's really bad when they become so big.
And regarding the financials, the EEA and Schengen are perfectly fine. Norway, Switzerland etc don't have significantly higher barriers to trade.
Personally I'm pro-european state. But it's dangerous having one as anti-democratic as the current EU, and I don't believe it's possible to change the current one, it needs to be torn down and rebuilt.
Demonstrably false. There are many decent parties whose position is "we want to stay in the EU, but a completely reformed and much better EU". People unsatisfied with current EU politics could vote them.
Most of the votes for neo-fascist parties are votes that come from fear (of other cultures or of losing money/job) or ignorance (as in "poor education"). Checkout the journal article "The Support Base of Radical Right Parties in the Enlarged European Union" [1] that analyses the demographics of the voters of neo-fascist parties in current EU.
[1] http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/07036330903145930
Errr..... History proves you wrong. Fascism was at the zenith of it's power when there was no EU. The danger is if the EU disappears, the fascists will come up with some other boggyman and get more powerful… Like last time…
I would also point out there was no Fascism during the relatively peaceful age from the defeat of Napoleon until WWI, as well as no EU.
Err, what? The EU (& Common Market before it) has done wonders for trade and business. That's why many countries want to get into it.
Several member states have had soverign debt crises (but then, the USA almost defaulted), but that has nothing to do with the EU. (More EU intergration might have stopped that)
Since the problems with having currency union without political integration were widely discussed at the time the union was being set up, I think that the failure to address them qualifies as 'completely economically inept'. Maybe 'completely' is a bit hyperbolic, when compared with the USSR or Zimbabwe, but still.
The great strength of Europe is that is consists of lots of competing small countries, which are capable of cooperating when faced with major threats such as the French or the Turks.
I can see why politicians would want to create a single State to oversee the whole area, but it boggles the mind that the rest of the populace would want to go along with that.
Crisis in Ireland was caused by a property bubble, and ridiculus lending from banks causing them to be essentially insolvent. Unconditional guarantee of all Irish bank debts by the Irish Government in Sept 2008 led to the Irish Government being unable to borrow money on the international bond market at a non-crazy rate.
If only there was more EU wide banking regulation.
In addition, the original cause of the ridiculous lending from banks - both in the US and EU - was ridiculously loose monetary policy, as a result of over-large governments trying to stimulate their economies out of the recession of the early 2000's. If banks have more money available to them, they're going to loan it out: that's their business.
If only we had more small and independent countries with their own currencies.
Surely if you're worried about Nazis taking over, you should be encouraging the existence of small independent nations, so that when they take over in one place, the damage is limited in scope.
Creating a federal European state is like giving the Nazis all the apparatus they need when they become strong enough.
Remember that in real life both Hitler and Mussolini came to power in countries that had been formed some 60 - 70 years ago from unifying smaller states into one.
There are fascists in the Greek parliament precisely because of the actions (or inaction) the EU takes. If anything the facts you outline point towards getting rid of the EU rather than giving it more power.
Abandoning the EU today would be an economic and social catastrophe, since it requires the re-erection of barriers at borders over which massive free flows of trade and labour currently exist. Germany's exports would be annihilated, the central European labour pool would be stranded, and several reintroduced currencies would collapse overnight.
It equally well strengthens the case for increased federalism, towards a United States of Europe with a federal parliament that actually can curb the actions of the Commission, and a single central bank (rather than today's messy compromise) to correct the failed madness of nation states that can issue bonds but cannot issue money.
The is almost no need for a waterhead burocracy in brussel.
There are several other treaties but these are the three most significant.
In other words, they are simultaneously the EU's constitution and they are the instruments keeping those trade & migration barriers down. So one cannot have one without the other. Instead a whole new set of treaties & governing organisations would have to be negotiated from scratch.
This is unlikely in the current, fragmented European political puzzle.
And even if they could be, well, the funny thing is, because of the nature of human specialisation, their details would be negotiated by the same diplocrats running the current system. I leave it to your imagination what the result of that will be.
So your telling me that they cannot possibly abandon the EU without abandoning these treaties? That and what stops them from simply re-writing and re-signing them?
What stops them?
How about :-
The multilateral complexity of negotiating the removal those pieces that aren't desirable anymore from those that are
The massive number of directives that have been issued under the auspices of said treaties that have to be reconsidered
The lack of political will
The need to recreate the political sentiments active in Europe in the '50s
The necessity for every European state to ratify said rewritten treaties in their parliaments
We're talking about disentangling tens of thousands of pieces of legislation and policy from the last fifty years, at both national and international level.Honestly, it would be easier to progress to full federalism or just ditch the whole thing, than try to edit the EU and achieve any kind of systemic consistency at the end of it.
Besides, the EU is not a 'state'.
>Besides, the EU is not a 'state'.
Yup, and therein lies the problem.
But they are just going to ignore it, right. No accounatability whatsoever.
When voting doesn't work, perhaps we should try a kickstarter? Groupon?
Parliament: Good Commission: Bad
http://digitaljournal.com/article/318690 Op-Ed: Obama signed ACTA in violation of Constitution, say critics
the MEP's aprove comissioners and therefore must have the ability to censue or remove them.
as "The Parliament may also block certain Commission decisions where there has been a delegation of powers to the Commission and may repeal such delegation of powers."
If a Commissioner directly states that they will ignore the will of parliment they deserve every thing they get
That's slang for "This guy is off his god damn rocker." People like this who have such blatant disregard for proper procedure should be castigated into humiliation.