Starlink's new satellites emit 30x more radio interference than before
theregister.com
theregister.com
There are billions of people in the world and no shortage of internet hot spots for those that need them.
Many people, myself included, grew up without internet connectivity and still managed somehow to get math degrees and write several million unique SLOC lines to backbone GIS, networking, crypto and the like.
For things like the Square Kilometre Array it's simply impossible to place them in space using current technology, and satellite constellations that leak too much unnecessary RF energy will destroy the investment we've made in them.
That also doesn't take into account things like space weather monitoring and forecasting, which also relies on highly sensitive distributed earth-based receivers.
Good regulation allows for both progress and an avoidance of a tragedy of the commons situation where unregulated satellites emit so much unnecessary RF energy that ground-based radio astronomy becomes impossible.
I bet once it's no longer practicable to host them on Earth, hosting them in space will become possible.
Sometimes, removing the easy option gets people solving problems they had no incentive to solve previously, and this can lead better outcomes.
obviously other times that doesn't happen but I'm an optimist.
The SKA is already an enormously expensive project that took decades to create and is at the very edge of our signal processing capabilities even using the highest capacity fibre-optic data networks and supercomputers. Deploying the same type of array in space is decades away at current technology levels.
What if? It appears that we collectively need to decide what uses we prefer.
> Just to keep astronomers happy, which would be better off using space based telescopes anyway.
Alternatively, why seriously restrict the ability to engage in research just because some people want to be able to talk directly to a satellite from their cell phone?
The reality is that nobody is going to get everything they want out of this. Compromise is required, and compromise means that nobody is going to be entirely happy.
Regulators don't "just" block things for shits and giggles.
They act because there is a need to do so; their acts formed by a consensus.
(I feel like I'm explaining this to a child).
Certainly.
I was at a recent sat-comms conference where this was strongly argued for: The number of LEO birds (and associated spectrum usage) has dramatically increased over the last 5 years and shows no sign of stopping.
Sky and spectrum are international resources, and international regulation is undoubtedly required at a UN level via the ITU (who regulate international spectrum usage), yet the UN remains slow to act.
For anyone wondering
As the subtitle says, the fact that Beijing would disclose this almost guarantees it's false. De-cloaking U.S. stealth fighters would be a singular game changer in the battles for Taiwan.
(viable in the sense that it's no use if it only works when a stealth plane blocks line of sight between ground detector and satellite)
By disclosing it, they reduced confidence in the military of multiple adversaries in the public eye and potentially caused them to spend to money to investigate/fix.
Right, it’s not.
> and they expect to use it in anger one day
If defending yourself against U.S. airstrikes is anger, I guess I’ll be glad if Beijing never gets angry.
> caused them to spend to money to investigate/fix
Yes, the famously budget-constrained U.S. military really hates it when adversaries release their intelligence on our weapons.
Version 1.0 (of course) came with an apology for its leakage noise and a promise that version 2.0 would do better.
EDIT: My factual statement appears to be downvoted by some true believers!
/s in case is necessary.
Good luck
- How easy are they to hostile takeover by a nation state?
- Would in-flight in-place malicious modifications even be detectable easily? Curious if temporary cut-offs are the norm due to atmospheric interference and such.
On a side note, ignore sensationalized media reporting about air forces violating air spaces. This is something every air force worth their salt does. It's only a real enforceable violation if they are past the border and in aviation altitudes (see my explanation below about spy planes) e.g. the balloon incident which was genuinely weird.
Above the Karman line it's no longer considered aviation and is generally governed more by international treaties and geopolitics (that are distinct and separate from civilian/general aviation regulations). Generally you can do whatever the fuck you want in space so long as you are not putting up kinetic weapons, creating lots of debris, or interfering with the trajectories of other countries' satellites. It's very much a wild west and the further you go the wilder it gets. That's why there's a concerted effort to replace the Outer Space Treaty (see the policy side of the Artemis Project for example) when it comes to space colonization (current laws aren't compatible with colonization, exercise for the reader to find out why). Generally speaking when you get high enough, the number of countries that has the capabilities to deny you airspace access can be counted on two hands, mostly the Security Council states and similarly advanced countries. There's a fuzzy area around the Karman line where it's generally too high for most conventional missiles to reach which is where the interesting spy plane missions get flown (and partially why countries like to build the space shuttle style space skimming vehicles). Laws only apply when you can enforce it, and anything space related gets expensive real fast. Even North Korea doesn't shake the boat too much when it comes to putting things into space.
Of course you are good with it, hopefully whatever you do with Internet everywhere you go is more important, and impactful than what radio astronomers could do without the radio pollution.
> Same as we were fine with every other thing that seemed like it was going to destroy the world.
We might be, or not. Anthropic bias: we can only observe the dice rolls that don't kill us.
For all we know, attitudes like yours are the solution to the Fermi paradox.
But this isn't about "will destroy us", this is about "is this interference even necessary?" and "do your personal benefits outweigh the harms to others?"
If I were in charge of the would I would say "let's put the telescopes in space" — but as I'm not, that's promising jam tomorrow to someone who wants food today.
I agree this should be fixed if it's possible. But if it meant 2x the price of the subscription, I'm pretty fine with them keeping it as it is. Global internet is just way too good for humanity to not do it.
And I'm saying this as someone who was seriously considering getting a Starlink connection (wired internet turned out to be good as well as cheap, but I was seriously considering Starlink).
> But if it meant 2x the price of the subscription, I'm pretty fine with them keeping it as it is.
If it was just about prices and nothing else, I'd be promoting the construction of an orbital ring launch system, which would inherently double as a global power grid and be a good place to mount PV.
Cheap space access (cheap enough to be used as a global 90-minute railway even if you have to go the long way around), cheap power supply (no clouds and less sun blocked by the air), cheap power transmission (because it's cross-subsidised with the other two).
> Global internet is just way too good for humanity to not do it.
So is "knowing where the asteroids are".
So we should just let a commercial entity piss away our (and our children's) ability to see the natural beauty of the universe then?
"You don't know what you've' got till it's gone, they paved paradise and put up a parking lot".
One can try to be a good neighbour and mindful of others sharing that space (in this case, radio frequencies coming from out of Earth), or one can be an asshole and say "no one owns this, I can do whatever I want".
> I think we’ll be fine. Same as we were fine with every other thing that seemed like it was going to destroy the world.
You can't know what will be missed, it's not about "will destroy the world", it's getting noisier, we will miss signals in those frequency ranges, and for what? So you and some others can travel around connecting to the Internet and posting on Hacker News? I don't think that improves our understanding of the cosmos, while the work of the people being impacted by the radio noise actually does improve our understanding of the fucking Universe.
I think it's quite clear what is more important for humanity... But assholes don't care about that, they launch some satellites to make some money, damned be others in their way.
The amount of people actually getting to access Wikipedia reliably for the first time because of Starlink is a tiny, tiny fraction of all users.
The pure hubris of not even communicating with the scientific community to tackle potential obstacles that could hinder their exploration is what's absolutely wrong, just a one-sided decision to fuck it up because they can.
> The stars ain't going to change. Maybe you'll miss a few supernovas. If I were a radio astronomer I'd actually be rejoicing now, because this gives me a legitimate need for the budget required to build my own Hubble-like telescope, far away from Starlink.
Oh, that's great, go tell that to the PhDs in radio astronomy right now that might be getting fucked in their observations while on a time crunch to get their doctorate because someone decided to turn on GHz radios in space that mess with their instruments developed through the research of thousands before them.
Also tell us the taxpayers that investment in our expensive radio astronomy equipment on Earth is getting less useful because one company decided they can fuck with the spectrum they've been developed to listen to, I'm sure that the observatories on this list [0] don't really care and now are tingling with joy because they can spend even more public money to build radio telescopes but in space™.
Have you ever tried to get grants to build instruments that cost 9 figures dollars, and a decade or more to be finished?
Not everything behaves 30 times worse in some (important) metric than the previous model. "T'is how it is" is a very low effort way of justifying anything.
> I'm good with it.
As is usually the case when the benefits are yours and the inconvenience (or more) is someone else's. Think just how many people are good with the downsides of having plentiful, cheap oil for example. Says nothing about the issue but speaks volumes about the person.
Too bad someone can't just use a Flipper Zero to turn off Starlink satellites if they're distracting [0].
Or they have the same rules for like Tesla chargers where you can't ask for a fee.
Almost every campsite has dozens at this point
My sister uses it out in the bush, very expensive but works extremely well
Unless another government chooses to nationalise fibre installations on a permanent and on-going basis (outside metro areas) we’ll continue being scalped in perpetuity.
The private sector in Australia has repeatedly failed to deliver even somewhat competitive prices in a number of key sectors. With a population <10% that of the USA, we do not have enough people for the private sector to not end up in a monopoly or duopoly.
Markets work really well when they incentivise competition but Australia has unique geographical and demographic factors which do not facilitate that incentivisation to sustain itself.