ADHD headband treats symptoms in 20 minutes per day | Hacker News Reader

ADHD headband treats symptoms in 20 minutes per day

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44 pointsludovicianul93 comments

As someone with severe ADHD who has been repeatedly told they need to try everything that's not medication (so much CBT), I am now deeply sceptical of every new supposed cure.

A presumably extremely expensive headband that claims to be a "MRI in your pocket" and has an AI assistant to help you use it correctly seems like yet another scam preying on the disabled.

I'll stick to the meds thanks.

I think your instincts are good here. It's very telling that they secured funding to take product to market before completing comprehensive trials of the device. That's ass backwards from how legit medical devices are developed.

This just seems to be tDCS stimulator with a bunch of bells and whistles and possibly better UX.

Probably not technically a scam, there is plenty of research showing that it might be somewhat effective but nothing particularly innovative (you can get a generic stimulator for probably a lot less without all the extreme marketing overhead).

tDCS is a thing, truly, but the risks of doing it wrong were things like... blindness.

presumably this induces a flow state, one of the documented advantages of tDCS, and helps drown out the ADHD

CBT for ADHD!?

Oh, that CBT.

I don't know why, but we have an off topic chat for our university computer science students - a field where there's a lot of autistic and adhd students, both diagnosed and undiagnosed - and God they're (or, we're) the kinkiest people I've met

The word "kinky" sounds so tame nowadays, especially with that news about Diddy...

Did you think it was Connecticut Bank and Trust?

>As someone with severe ADHD who has been repeatedly told they need to try everything that's not medication (so much CBT),

Mind telling me what have you tried as far diet goes?

* cutting processed sugar: worked wonders, highly recommend

* cutting general sugar (eg fruit): depression

* cutting carbs: also depression

* various oil suppliments: no change

* CBD oil: less manic, no help with concentration, too expensive for the cost/benefit to be worth it

one other "diet" change - getting 8-9 hours of sleep a day so I can cut my caffeine intake to a cup of black tea in the morning and maybe one in the afternoon if I'm having a bad day.

I cannot overstate how good sleeping properly is. It does mean I need to be super careful with the meds so they're out of my body by the time I'm in bed, but a good night's sleep and some medical grade stimulants with a nice cup of tea is the best way I've found to have a productive day.

>cutting carbs: also depression

Did anybody give you tips on this? the depression generally lifts after 2 months. For most people it's around 2 weeks, but for stubborn cases it may take upto 2 month especially for women.

Anyway, I'm sure you are fed up hearing advise/tips, I'll leave it at that. If you think I may have something to offer (and I think I do) email me.

Ps: I'm fully cognizant that every person has their favorite diet/remedy, and I'm just another delusional individual who thinks I've (partially) figured it out).

I dunno if anyone's ever told you this, but one of the symptoms of ADHD is executive dysfunction which causes extreme difficulty in dealing with deferred rewards, especially if discomfort is involved.

Then I'd say that there is very little hope. The discomfort can be extreme when one gives up carbs to a point where one could could be bed ridden for a few days. The addictive characteristics of carbs resemble narcotic drugs.

Wow.

Coincidently, I was just reading Bad Blood

I wouldn’t call mine severe but I’ve had the same frustration. I swear it’s just lining me up for a cavalcade of techbro medical startups who have clearly found a scheme for making money through government, insurance, and desperate people.

My first thought was "oh here we go again" - I'd try it though.

    While there isn't ... clinical studies

Wouldn't one do studies with a prototype before building a polished product, a website, YouTube videos etc?

> The device delivers light electrical stimulation to the prefrontal cortex

Literally means tDCS or tACS, there are too many funded researches on this actually, like way too many:

https://reporter.nih.gov/search/IpqXmwaGiEebldke_6C2hw/proje...

https://reporter.nih.gov/search/QS9jFRFJuEWcukEIfuJ_Yg/proje...

I remember when I was in the field, it was one of the hotter topics in the neurosciences quite some time ago (~2010).

When you are pretty sure some investors will shower you in startup money because AI, why bother with the complications of the real world? You're building a money sink, not a product.

The kind of new-age companies that sell quantum armband infused with shaman crystals — or whatever it is this time — you tend not to see on ClinicalTrials.gov

These guys went on Shark Tank, and received no offers because their fine print says that it has “no medical benefits” and is not backed up by any peer-reviewed scientific evidence.

This sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen.

shark tank takes 10% of a company just for them being on the show, last i heard, which is really funny to me

Ah, the standard "you just need to work on it" trope for ADHD treatment with a serving of "neurons that fire together wire together" and "this device monitors your brain exercises so you can see your executive function get stronger"

If you could ACTUALLY make your executive function stronger this way, all of these productivity hacks ADHD sufferers use would also have had some kind of lasting effect.

I know that there is a lot of research going into transcranial direct current stimulation (tDCS) and transcranial magnetic stimulation (TMS).

For some diseases it has been shown to be effective. However, for ADHD - as far as i can see - the studies don't agree and it is preliminary for any conclusions [1].

From [1]: Finally, a PubMed search (keywords: tDCS AND attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder) identified 24 papers, including 2 original clinical studies (single-session studies) and 80 patients. One study (60 patients) did not find significant differences between active and sham tDCS regarding the effect of bihemispheric tDCS of the DLFPC (left anode + right cathode) on behavioral performance in go/no-go tasks (Cosmo et al., 2015). Conversely, the other study (20 patients) showed that anodal tDCS of the left DLPFC (with right supraorbital cathode) increased the proportion of correct responses in go/no-go tasks, whereas cathodal tDCS of the left DLPFC increased the inhibition accuracy (Soltaninejad et al., 2016). Obviously, reported results are too preliminary to make any recommendation for the use of tDCS in all these psychiatric conditions.

[1] Evidence-based guidelines on the therapeutic use of transcranial direct current stimulation (tDCS) (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S138824571...)

With the topics of ADHD and autism entering mainstream Internet conversations more often, I think it's kind of predictable that stuff like this will start showing up more regularly.

Considering how much people can struggle with these issues, even in spite of proper medical care, it's safe to assume for the time being that this falls under the magic device category.

This isn't some new, or innovative technology. Transcranial direct-current stimulation (tDSC) has been studied for a long time and there even is an active community of enthusiastic DIY experimentalists. tDSC is certainly interesting, but it is also inherently limited, evident by lack of praxis/application. If tDSC is proven effective for treating ADHD symptoms you can relatively easily have the same thing (probably better) as an opensource project, 3D printing and FOSS. Not going this route is kinda sus to me. Pretty sure this was a business looking for an idea, not the other way around. Probably targeted at TikTok diagnoses not eligible for controlled meds and clout-chasing "biohackers", who will gladly preach the good news through affiliate links.

I doubt tDSC will ever beat stimulant medication, which is a cheap, safe and very effective treatment option, for almost a century. Some studies even show MRI evidence for long-term normalization of (young) ADHD brains with stimulant medication. Retarded formulations have a very low abuse potential. The biggest problem with these meds is legislation and stigma. And lately supply chain issues...

Oh, and the advertised thing is most definitely not a "brain-imaging device" lol.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcranial_direct-current_st...

https://old.reddit.com/r/tDCS/

I'm also going to stick to the meds, as they work very well for me, with that said tDCS seems to have some merit, according to research [0]. But there doesn't seem to be a lot of data with larger sample sizes yet. So this product doesn't completely strike me as snake oil, but i have my reservations until more data is available or at least FDA approved

[0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32418073/

You might want to know that ADHD meds may increase the risk of Parkinson's. This is something that needs to be spoken about more.

https://www.additudemag.com/adhd-medications-parkinsons-dise...

I have another comment here that explains how this may happen and why blasting EMFs in your brain will do the same thing.

If I had ADHD the first thing I would try is B6 in the form of P5P: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24321736/

There are many genetic and environmental causes to ADHD though, so I am in no way saying that a B6 issue is a cure all. But if you have high Homocysteine it could be a sign you need B6.

https://www.mdpi.com/2227-9067/11/4/497

In my case it's genetic. My mom & sister also have it. My grandmother has Parkinson's, so I'm extremely likely to also get it at some point. I've tried all recommended vitamins, supplements, etc. nothing really helped as much as Concerta.

You should get a full genome run on yourself and whoever else is affected and start investigating if you have polymorphisms in some of the genes responsible fro making dopamine or issues with antioxidant enzymes like GPX:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3736736/

Thanks, i will look into it.

It's fun to find grey/read links at random in these threads. B6 worked for me and adding B2 was also beneficial. But make sure to read about B6 toxicity as well. And you're going to freak out your doctor if you tell them.

Thanks.

By taking B6 in the form of P5P you reduce the need to push the Pyridoxal Kinase enzyme (which uses zinc) and you will more than likely not have any neurological side effects. And you will also save your ATP for better things.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyridoxal_kinase

Very much dose dependent. 200mg was the sweet spot for me, but going higher caused tingling toes.

Sure, but:

The absolute risk of developing Parkinson’s, even for those treated with ADHD medication, remains very low – only eight or nine people in 100,000.

Is the technology inside this device likely to be relatively simple? It seems like an area that would naturally attract a lot of hackers running experiments, etc. Being able to be powered by a small enough battery to fit into a headset is also quite interesting considering the high level of power typically used in TMS.

Since there is no reason to think this works they can make it as complex or simple as they like and open source clones can do whatever.

Attention is a skill. You can train your attention like you train a muscle. There's a real proliferation, these days, of medical and chemical treatments for ADHD. And many of them really help people. But if your goal is to build muscle, maybe what you need isn't a steroid injection, but an exercise.

While there are some new treatments for ADHD which show some promise, some of the best ways to train one's attention are the oldest. Zen Buddhism, for example, has been around for fifteen hundred years or so, and has a lot of evidence behind it. If you sit in zazen for a full sesshin, at around ten hours a day for ten days, you will undoubtedly start to develop strong powers of attention. But even ten minutes a day is effective.

One word comes to mind - "Juicero"

[0]. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juicero

I'm imagining the elevator pitch: "Like Juicero, but for your brain."

This isn't FDA approved at all, it might as well be a supplement. Which is to say it likely doesn't help at all.

I think you are wrong to malign supplements. ADHD is known in some cases to be reversed by B6.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24321736/

I hate having my hopes played with. To say that I'm skeptical is an understatement.

I don’t necessarily discount that the underlying premise of this headband (electrical brain stimulation) may have some positive impact on some ADHD symptoms in some people, this product rings of overengineered design-by-committee VC-leveraged scam product.

First of all, “MRI in your pocket” is just complete nonsense. Brain wave monitoring has nothing to do with MRIs. MRIs have never been shown to have any relevance to detecting or monitoring ADHD symptoms. And this headband and the associated app could never provide any MRI-like features.

Secondly, the included AI assistant screams of “we added this to appease our investors so we could get another round of funding”. The article doesn’t detail how the AI would interact with the headband anyway. Rather, given that the AI assistant generates “user-friendly, personalized to-do lists”, it sounds like this is just another “you just need to make better todo lists” low-effort ChatGPT wrapper from neurotypical busybodies who fundamentally misunderstand ADHD in the most insulting ways.

The article’s summary, “It's essentially a brain-imaging device for personal use”, is just a flat-out, irresponsible lie.

This kind of snake oil stuff should be illegal as it only enables abuse of people with such condition.

I can easily picture this:

"concerned relative / partner"> You could be much better if only you tried this <insert name of magic cure / device>

person with condition> I have researched this, these things don't work, it is a waste of time and money.

"concerned relative / partner"> No, you just don't want to get better! I am really losing patience with you. Why don't you want to get help!?

The FDA makes life very difficult for companies making medical claims that are false.

I cannot see this device actually coming to market in the US without rigorous studies demonstrating efficacy. (No idea how strict Australia is…)

The article is nothing more than a fundraising pitch. There is no product on the market yet.

> No, you just don't want to get better! I am really losing patience with you. Why don't you want to get help!?

I do not understand why people choose someone who says stuff like this as their partner.

These things don't come out on the first date, they can develop over the years at which point you become stuck with that person (could be children, pets, property and other stuff). Many people are simply trapped - they cannot leave because they won't have money to get some place to live, they got cut out of their friends / family and are controlled by fear ("If you leave me I am going to kill myself and leave a note that you did it, you'll go to jail" or "Without me you are nothing, you are worthless, you won't find anyone and you'll die alone" etc).

Often these "unchangeable" personal faults are revealed after a commitment like marriage, children or signing a lease together.

Now all of the sudden you are a full time in home aide for your former partner.

As for why the person with the problems doesn't leave, they don't want to have to spend a few months/years as a contributing partner to trick someone into caring for them again.

There a lot of people who say "I love you just the way you are", but think "I can mold them into my perfect partner".

Abusive relationships exist, also its not just grey and white. Oftentimes at the beginning of a relationship everything seems fine and happy but as time goes on the bad stuff shows up, one partner can't handle the others adhd sympoms and this kind of conversation can show up

Besides your parent mentioned relatives as well. You don't choose those

Great if this happens, since it uncovers ongoing unhealthy relationship patterns, and makes them more visible. It does absolutely nothing to enable them.

To label it "abuse" immediately is modern, but not necessarily the most beneficial perspective if you want to grow with each other. You may also not always be in the position to choose who you interact with (e.g. relatives). Then you can still work on why (and how) you would care about _their_ problem, and not make it yours. Seems to be a confusion here about who has the "condition"/problem?

Now that's some gaslighting here.

These products give false hope and are triggering for people susceptible for it which leads to abuse.

Can you explain what do you mean by "gaslighting" in this context? We seem to have a different understanding of what that term means?

Gaslighting is when someone manipulates you into questioning your own perception or reality. By dismissing the concern, minimising the abuse, and subtly shifting blame, you're continuing to do just that - making me question whether the emotional manipulation described is valid, which is exactly what gaslighting is.

Gaslighting is not simply someone sharing a different perspective than you. It requires an ongoing relationship with dependencies, and orchestration. By using the term for simple situations like this, you are minimizing what actual gaslighting entails, and how destructive it can be for someone's psyche.

https://time.com/6262891/psychology-terms-misused-gaslightin...

How are you reading my comment as something where I make you doubt your perception? Can we not simply disagree, and share our different perspectives? Can we not hold different opinions about things, even concurrently, in our minds? I can unfold, and explain my position more, if you're interested. This is a place of discussion, after all. How would you say should I describe my opinion so you don't receive it as gaslighting?

I did not mean to imply that the emotional manipulation is not "valid". I was trying to say that it can be handled in a way where the person with the problem, which is the person consciously or unconsciously trying to employ manipulation (likely because they were raised like that) can be provided with an opportunity to learn and grow. We all were raised more or less in manipulative ways, so we all are carrying it inside. A relationship can be the place to heal it, if both partners want to do that.

It's not the gadget that enables abuse. Abusers will find whatever "tools" and situations to do that. This was my point. A hammer is a hammer, and it's not the hammer's fault if someone uses it to smash in my head.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle

Yes, dude, keep gaslighting. I think you need therapy if you are like this in real life.

You are using techniques of diversion instead of engaging with the content of the discussion.

I'm reminded of the "magnet therapy" my grandmother was given for her gallbladder cancer in the 80s or 90s.

How can something that feels like nothing change how you feel and act?

The answer: It can't, electrocuting your brain might work for some types of ADHD (maybe for example for the people who have a type of ADHD caused by tight cranial muscles).

But I severely doubt it will cure ADHD caused by more complex things like inflammation or genetic changes to dopamine synapses or one of the other (uncountable many) reasons that can be behind an individuals ADHD symptoms.

Reminds me of a fascinating podcast by Radiolab - 9 Volt Nirvana: https://radiolab.org/podcast/9-volt-nirvana/transcript

     > SOREN: So what Sally had stumbled into was something called TDCS. It stands for 'transcranial direct current stimulation.' The idea is you take a couple little electrodes, you place them on your scalp, connect it with wires to a battery. You send a little bit of electricity into your brain, and then all kinds of things happen if you believe the claims.

...

    > MICHAEL WEISEND: So almost every person that we put this on says they get into what they call a "state of flow," where they don't recognize that the time is going by, they're just, boom, boom, boom, boom.

...

    > SALLY ADEE: And I was like, "Did you guys make it easier?" They're like, "No, same—same level." I'm like, "I think you guys made it easier."

I am unbelievably skeptical to this and am having trouble believing this is anything other than quack stuff, but I don't have the personal skill or knowledge to make real sense of this – I'd need some real research presented rather than a marketing video. Anyone here able to help explain the head-zap-o-tron and how viable it is to a pleb like myself?

Absolutely fascinating if it works, though.

How does it work? I read 75% of the article?

What probability it is complete BS?

tDCS seems to have some merit, according to research https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32418073/ So this product doesn't completely strike me as snake oil.

99%

50-50

This is going to lead to horrible results.

Note the link between ADHD and Parkison's: https://parkinsonsdisease.net/news/adhd-increased-risk

These are both Dopamine deficient disorders. By using EMFs to stimulate the brain you will not increase the amount of Dopamine created, you will only increase the Dopamine that is released. This will lead to longer term issues, and I fully believe, an increase in the risk of Parkinson's or other dopa related disorders.

Will it help symptoms? Yes. But so does Ritalin and so does Levdopa for Parkinson's. And it is well know that Levdopa makes Parkinson's worse in the long run for many people by accelerating the loss of nigrostriatal dopamine nerve terminals:

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa033447

"The clinical data suggest that levodopa either slows the progression of Parkinson's disease or has a prolonged effect on the symptoms of the disease. In contrast, the neuroimaging data suggest either that levodopa accelerates the loss of nigrostriatal dopamine nerve terminals or that its pharmacologic effects modify the dopamine transporter. The potential long-term effects of levodopa on Parkinson's disease remain uncertain."

And Ritalin is known to increase the risk of PArkinon's: https://www.additudemag.com/adhd-medications-parkinsons-dise... https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36593727/

Why is this? Because in these people the damage is caused by the rapid metabolism of Dopamine and the creation of H2O2, an oxidative stressor that destroys the neurons.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4135313/

So these people would likely do better by focusing on reducing the oxidative stress of increased H2O2.

But back to ADHD: ADHD is known to be linked to lower dopamine creation. To increase dopamine where and when the brain needs it you need to stimulate the pathway that makes Dopamine. This is a simple pathway.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Eirini-Kalliolia/public...

The enzymes GCH1 and PTPS need zinc to work. BH4 (Tetrahydrobipterin) is very sensitive to oxidative stress, TH needs Iron, and AADC (DDC) needs B6.

The genetic disorder, AADC Deficiency, leads to ADHD symptoms. https://aadcnews.com/columns/how-understanding-adhd-helps-us...

If you have a genetic polymorphism in any of these genes it will make you more likely to have lower dopamine. And if you are deficient in any of the vitamin cofactors you will also be deficient in dopamine.

IMH(well researched)O, ADHD is a polygenetic and dietary disorder that can be reversed with nutrition and limiting the release of dopamine (like no coffee, no alcohol, no sugar, etc).

Personalized Medicine is the only way anyone will have any relief from ADHD. For each person there are different genetic and environmental causes. EMF Stimulation if trying to find a magic bullet for a complex and individual disorder and it will lead to worse outcomes.

The studies you link to about Parkinson's do not support and/or contradict what you say here

From what I know of ADHD in re-using my Biology and Chemistry knowledge to come up with a Nootropics stack that works...

It would seem that this device is some quackery....

Why? Because ADHD hyperactivity is a loss of control not extra neuro activity...

A dysfunction in regulation can result from a lower than ideal amount of neural activity in various areas. This is why stimulants are often effective.

You need to learn more about ADHD before spouting off in this forum.

For those thinking any technology might be a "cure" for a specific disability, I highly recommend checking out the book Against Technoableism by Ashley Shew [1]. It really helps articulate the reasoning behind "nothing about us without us" in the context of "life changing" technology - including snakeoil bullshit like this.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Against-Technoableism-Rethinking-Impr...

The meds are basically speed. Epilepsy patients are told never to use speed, but then another doctor can diagnose AD(H)D and prescribe ritalin. I hope these new treatments work well, reduce side effects, and have less chance of interacting with other treatments.

> The meds are basically speed.

There's a number of different stimulants and non-stimulants. "The meds" are not a thing.

Care to elaborate? I've just looked it up to see if things changed, but all I see is Ritalin / Concerta, Strattera, and Dextroamphetamine. There might be others, but they'd either be off-label or aren't reimbursed by insurance. Where in the world are other meds prescribed and covered?

On the non-stimulant side there's also atomoxetine and guanfacine, but they're not commonly used yet. And there's weed which is prescribed in some places. You can also find studies on other things which you can buy without prescription, but they're not officially approved / fully checked for safety.

atomoxetine, while not a direct stimulant, is a norepinepherine reuptake inhibitor. That is, it makes the speed you already have stay around longer.

And Guanfacine is certainly a stimulant. It is an agonist of the α2A-adrenergic receptor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guanfacine

Guanfacine is not a stimulant. The Wikipedia page doesn't say it explicitly but hints at that a number of times. It's spelled out here though https://www.nps.org.au/radar/articles/guanfacine-intuniv-for... DEA also doesn't care and https://dailymed.nlm.nih.gov/dailymed/drugInfo.cfm?setid=1c4... shows no potential for abuse and lethargy as common side effect. Also from experience - it doesn't feel even close to stimulants.

My definition of stimulants is wider than your definition.

The drug antagonizes the adrenaline receptors. Adrenaline stimulates people.

They are selling it as a non-stimulant drug because people are stupid.

All you see where?

Buproprion and clonidine are commonly prescribed for ADHD in the US.

The headband doesn't work. You'll never hear about it again

The "fixes your colorblindness" glasses don't work, and they're still a thing.

You clearly don’t know much about the topic. There’s a huge variety of medications for ADHD. Some are classed as stimulants, but in many people with ADHD, it turns out that many stimulants actually provide a calming effect.

If you take ADHD stimulant meds and get high, you probably don’t have ADHD.

Also, not sure what epilepsy has to do with anything here.

> not sure what epilepsy has to do with anything here.

In general: High generic correlation and interesting drug interaction https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10049646/ (but I'm not sure if that's what OP was thinking of)

People with ADHD and in a low energy state. By taking stimulants we can say it brings them up to a "normal" state. If they too more of the drug it will surly over stimulate the patient.

For me its the oposite, too much makes me sleepy. I actually slept for 24hours because of an ritalin overdose

This is because it also releases serotonin, and the serotonin turns into melatonin, which makes you tired.

I mean doesnt that contradict what my parent said?

No. Because it stimulates sleep or wakefulness, depending on a persons genetics.Most stimulants release all the catecholamines.

And for high blood pressure they sometimes prescribe you actual explosives! For human consumption! Nitroglycerin! How ridiculous. /s

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