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Comment by nfriedly | Hacker News Reader

If you're willing to take lower pay, there are a lot of good options out there.

I took a nearly 50% cut about 5 years ago (a few months before the pandemic) to join a smaller company with a much less stressful environment and a very flexible WFH policy, and I don't regret it at all.

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That's a US perspective right? I don't think that exists much in Europe?

I just got a 3 month freelance gig (Netherlands) and even that requires full time on-site for absolutely no reason other than "boss says so". There's also a housing crisis going on and they wonder why they have an open vacancy for literally 6+ months.

I guess it's better to watch it burn than to allow WFH.

That's probably because you're a freelancer, which makes it a point for negotiation business to business.

Employees have a legal right to work from home, so far as is reasonable in their circumstances and their employer's. There is legislation and jurisprudence on that, which makes it a lot less soft than it at first appears. The boss can't just say 'no'.

> Employees have a legal right to work from home

Sorry but that’s a fantasy. I live in Germany and that is 100% not the case here. You might be able to negotiate it if you are an especially valuable employee but normally no chance

I agree on the Germany perspective here. Although I may add, from my experience and what I observed on media, the return to office push post Covid wasn’t nearly as extreme here in Germany as it was in the US.

I and my entire department still work mostly from home, with 2-3 days/month onsite. Pre Covid this would have been unimaginable, now there are multiple departments operating this way

Yes, German work/employment culture is a crab barrel where every quality of life improvement has to be fought for tooth and nail.. The Netherlands cemented WFH as a right after the Corona period when it had shown to not negatively impact productivity while positively impacting quality of life for employees.

You have, in some countries, the legal right "to request" work from home under laws typically aimed at flexible working. But that's it.

A company can, for any reasonable reason, decline the request.

> You have, in some countries, the legal right "to request" work from home under laws typically aimed at flexible working. But that's it.

I would think, generally speaking, you have the right to request anything of anyone anywhere. Do those laws do anything?

Probably forcing the creation of a paper trail for possible future litigation

The idea behind those laws is you cannot be fired for asking this.

I believe some of these flexible working request laws mean that companies must consider whether it's reasonable (for the business) and allow it if it's reasonable.

It's fairly toothless in most jurisdictions since businesses can just say it's unreasonable and not elaborate.

They force the employer to give a reason, and that reason has to be "reasonable", i.e. can be fought in courts if it's "that's just how we do it here".

Most cases do have some notable restrictions on that.

For instance, requesting sex in exchange for money is illegal in most places.

Requesting someone commit a crime on your behalf in exchange for money or other compensation as well (conspiracy, usually).

Several other examples too - requesting someone fix their prices, agree to not compete with you in exchange for the same, etc.

Where is this legal right to work from home? It does not exist in Germany as well as in couple northern countries. Is this a thing for Netherlands?

Think so. It's also (sort of) true where I work (Hungary) if you are a parent of a child under the age of 7. It's not so much an automatic right as the right to request alternative work arrangements (home office, flexitime, etc.), and your employer can't just say 'no', they have to demonstrate the reasons that that's not acceptable (whatever arrangement you requested).

There is no legal right to work from home in The Netherlands. The only law we have is that an employer should give you a good reason to work from the office.

"Employees have a legal right to work from home,"

We're just making shit up now, huh

> I guess it's better to watch it burn than to allow WFH.

i guess there are a lot of companies have not yet found a way to manage wfh for overall satisfaction, which massively burdens morale and hence they face the decision of doing something or watch it burn.

There are definitely jobs that allow WFH in the Netherlands. And there are loads that allow some hybrid form.

As long as we are sharing anecdotes, I can share mine from the Netherlands as well. Employer sanely leaves it to the team to decide how often to work from office. My team decided to work from home but meet at office atleast once in 2 months. There are other teams within the company that works practically 100% at office because they like it, and it makes their job easier.

I do know atleast a few other companies where I worked at or have friends working at in the Netherlands with similar WFH setup.

If we're doing anecdotes, my company in NL lets teams decide on their work schedule, and most people choose WFH 3/5 days, with some people (myself) doing full remote except for some Fridays (Vrijmibo FTW :) ), and some people doing office every day.

Which to me is the sane option.

Yes, US perspective. Many employers here are similarly persnickety about being on-site, but there are also some good ones that are open to remote work and a few that are fully remote.

It's been 10+ years since I did freelance, but I was fully remote then too, FWIW.

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