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Comment by tracerbulletx | Hacker News Reader

I've generally thought like this, that whatever I'm doing in my life, including my labor should be something I want to do and energizes me. But I can't help but think this is kind of an aristocratic privilege. Someone, A LOT of someone's, most someone's, need to operate the oil rigs, drive the trucks, crew the ships, clean the kitchens, operate the sewage system, work under an organized hierarchy of thousands of people doing a tiny part of a massive function, etc etc etc. Any philosophy that doesn't account for the essential labor of civilization has an unrecoverable problem.

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There's somewhat of a internal forum question - nobody wakes up saying "today I want to be a septic engineer" but you can make the decision, to if not enjoy it, at least be good at it and be fulfilled.

Happiness is an internal action and if you depend on external stimuli for it, you're going to be perpetually unhappy.

And the people doing the "low-class/low-respect" jobs are often some of the happiest I meet - most of their complaints aren't about the job but about other things, much of which boils down to money and its consequences.

One aspect of the jobs you listed is that at least you feel you did something; trash got collected, a sewer kept working, a ship moved location.

Many of our "high-pay/high-class" jobs have nothing you can point at at the end of the day - no "I did that" to feel good about.

>There's somewhat of a internal forum question - nobody wakes up saying "today I want to be a septic engineer"

about 20+ years ago I was working at a place that made concrete walls or other concrete fixtures, these walls were then taken and shipped around mainly the Western United States but theoretically all over.

Hated the job and I wasn't very good at it, although I got good reports from the supervisors because I was one of the guys who only called in sick once a month, most people, even the illegals were calling in sick at least once per week because it was a really miserable job starting at 5 in the morning in a cold windy area with lots of injuries and sometimes fatalities.

Anyway we got a new guy joining the team, Rory, he was 19 or 20 I think.

And one day we were standing out in the middle of the yard waiting for a big concrete wall to be picked up and brought to us, and I looked over at Rory and he had this big smile on his face and he was almost dancing with excitement and he announced, because evidently he thought I wanted to share, that this was his dream job that he had been dreaming of since he was a little kid.

I probably looked stunned and disgusted as I said something like "really?!?"

Yep, he explained, when he was a kid he would watch the guys working the big construction sites and he thought I want to do that when I grow up!

So what I'm saying is - maybe somebody does grow up thinking "I want to be a septic engineer".

Thinking about it I wanted to design ecologically sound waste disposal systems some years back, so I guess I could have talked about that too.

My cousin literally went to school for water filtration stuff, grew up in a family of farmers and worked out graywater solutions for their farms and is now working as a septic engineer, maybe not 100% in the role he wants to do but certainly in the ballpark.

But obviously some jobs are going to be worse than others, but what matters is people's tolerance and increased compensation. People work crazy dangerous jobs on oil rigs because of the pay. They aren't forced to do it. The economics would just rejigger such that harder more necessary jobs pay more while easier jobs pay less. There has already been a shift the past few decades where plumbers and other blue collar jobs are bringing in more attractive salaries by lack of workers, so more kids are choosing those careers now (especially with the stupidity of higher ed costs).

I wouldn't be against plumbers and electricians making more than finance and tech bros. Sounds like a better rebalancing of societal needs, honestly.

> Many of our "high-pay/high-class" jobs have nothing you can point at at the end of the day - no "I did that" to feel good about.

What a fantastic take. Actually seeing your labor affect the world in real time. I feel there should be a word for it. Knowledge economy workers are highly trained and skilled, but I've always had the suspicion that many of us have a general malaise that their job is 30% actual work, 30% politicking, 40% justifying your salary because the job is now a part of their personality and raises social status or pays the kids private school tuition.

The obvious outcome is overwork, depression, and in some places - sane people jumping off buildings. I'll claim it's quite rare to find stone masons jumping off cliffs because the job has them at their wits end.

Not a communist, but Marx called this "alienation", when your labor and the goods / services you produce have less to do with your own life.

It's a bad thing, but I think it's a tradeoff we've had to make for a more efficient economy. Some people want to grow their own food but I'm happy with mechanized farming and big-ass tractors doing it for me while I sit in air conditioning.

"Any philosophy that doesn't account for the essential labor of civilization has an unrecoverable problem" -> True, and here's where I hope increased automation will provide a sustainable and equitable solution. When managing a sewer or drain means programming a robot equipped with sensors and cleaning tools, then cleaning a sewer is no longer something that requires a system that subjugates a set of people to do this unenviable task for low wages.

Yet, social structures persist in many countries and the technology has not achieved sufficient penetration. Ultimately any debate about work or retirement will devolve into politics and why certain sections of people remain poor and unable to get to a position of financial comfort. But talking about UBI, early retirement etc is doubly important because these problems are always dismissed as aristocratic, but the fact is most people suffer from the consequences.

> , A LOT of someone's, most someone's, need to operate the oil rigs, drive the trucks, crew the ships, clean the kitchens, operate the sewage system, work under an organized hierarchy of thousands of people doing a tiny part of a massive function,

the market is supposed to pay you a high enough wage until it becomes attractive to spend the time doing it. in fact for some of these jobs, it does.

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