To this day, almost two decades after I left my philosophy PhD program (without a PhD), I still have massive student loan debt.
Even if I had completed my degree, though, philosophy PhDs aren't particularly lucrative. Tenured professors at major universities do ok, but the road to getting tenure-track jobs and then tenure is littered with the bodies of grad students.
I don't think starry-eyed 21 year olds deciding what to do are much different from starry-eyed 17 year olds deciding what to do.
It's worth noting, by the way, that the United States has a shortage of medical doctors.
That's a pipeline problem. What the U.S. actually has is a severe bottleneck in available places at medical schools and for residency training.
Instead, what does an uncredentialled Chemistry Bachelor do after dropping out of medical school? ...I became an electrician, which allowed me to help people without sacrificing my lifestyle.
If your goal also includes "make substantial sums of money," I always recommend to preMeds they consider all the different ways someone can make money helping people without having to sacrifice your entire early adulthood.
The majority of my medschool classmates refer to me as "the dumbest smart guy they know," but in confidence several have expressed jealousy at not having to work so much (for IMHO so little, as physicians). Just cogs in an overly-complex, wealth-extracting machine...
When you’re smart enough to understand the consequences the of your “dumb decisions” and have the EQ to navigate the aftermath.
To each his own. I think higher education in America is primarily designed to degrate and beat students into submission.
As I've heard repeated elsewhere, the road to tenured PhD is paved with grad-student bodies.
Additionally, while many may be knowledgable about the medications they prescribe, I have had nurse practitioners prescribe me medication they didn't even know existed, as in during my session I asked for a specific medication based on a personal recomendation from a freind in the field, they didn't know what the medication was and looked up on google and then prescribed it to me.
There are good nurse practitioners, but they simply should not be prescribing long term pyschiatric medication with the level of schooling they have.
It takes 2 years to become a nurse, and 3 years to become a nurse practitioner. Additional certification is required to prescribe certain medications, but even then the amount of training and classes a nurse practitioner will take to understamd medications is very small compared to a psychiatrist.
It's absurd. NP's have been the solution to psychiatist shortage and it seems no one cares. Most likely, because anyone who knows is zombified by SSRIs by shit NPs or is in the medical field so their vision is already clouded by bias. Nurse takeover is a joke. Anybody with 2-3 years of schooling should be relagated to changing bedpans and putting in IVs. Not functioning as psuedo doctors.
How human that this practitioner admitted to not knowing something; then took the time to look up the drug's factsheet; and then trusted you enough to take your friend's personal recommendation.
>There are good nurse practitioners
Agreed. And terrible physicians, as well as good.
>...but they simply should not be prescribing long term pyschiatric medication with the level of schooling they have.
Agreed – with the additional thought that even physicians overprescribe these mind-altering substances in far-too-abundance.
>NP's have been the solution to psychiatist shortage and it seems no one cares...Nurse takeover is a joke.
I think most people "on psych meds" really just need better friends / families / societies / healthcare . It is most unfortunate that we are our own worst enemies, sometimes; particularly in allowing US healthcare expenditures to be highest with no obvious benefit (to patients).
It all made me so sick decades ago that I quit before even starting.
I programmers were smart, they would:
1. Lobby the government to prohibit anyone from practicing programming without a license.
2. Limit the number of licenses granted each year
Available residency slots are dictated by the funding made available through the Medicare program and ultimately Congress.
Broadly, it’s the same issue that all jobs have: it’s cheaper to hire pre-trained professionals than to hire and train.
Hospitals are really quasi-government entities. Their pricing structures have price controls based on Medicare reimbursements. A third of hospital revenue is Medicare and Medicaid.
Both programs have been slowing rate growth, which in turn impacts private insurance as well. The institutions haven’t been successful in reducing cost growth. ACA built out regional cartels^H provider networks, essentially eliminating competition.
Who is successfully lobbied by organizations of doctors
Congress doesn't make decisions in a vacuum
In much the same way that a doctor in $FOREIGN_COUNTRY cannot practice telemedicine in the USA, I would expect the regulations to make a distinction between software (and services provided by software) developed by foreign and licensed programmers.
U.S. retired doctor here. This is a fascinating possibility that never occurred to me until I read your comment. Could a foreign doctor not set up a system whereby she/he could appear to be in the U.S. while being in a country that's essentially unreachable by U.S. authorities? And take payment in cryptocurrency?
No way you're getting consensus on this one, but even if you could, it's too hard to stop. If you charge for compilers, and only provide them to licensed developers, hippies will make and distribute compilers for free.
Consensus isnt needed, just enough beurocracy to make development expensive.
Imagine that every programmer would have to study, say, Latin for 4 years before being allowed to code.
But the pipeline of lawyers, doctors, MBAs, etc. is quite a bit larger than self-pay philosophy PhDs, and a large fraction of those professional degrees are full-freight, $70k/year (plus living expenses!) of pure debt.
Ironically, the ones we need the most are paid the least.
Of course, that's assuming students finish their degrees and get jobs. Plenty of people drop out of school, and they don't get refunds! Law students fail to pass the bar, etc.
That program has many gotchas, but at least this reflects a recognition that debt creates incentives that society may not want.
That isn’t ironic at all. If they were paid more, we wouldn’t have a shortage.
In humanities fields, if the department thinks you belong in the program, they pay you to attend. They'll give you fellowships, TAships, and RAships. If they don't give you those, they're telling you not to attend. This is a harsh truth.
However, I did in fact receive some TAships and lectureships while I was there, and even a dissertation fellowship. They didn't pay well though.
I mean, maybe? I know a number of state schools, certainly not all of them, but plenty that can afford paid spots for PhD students in the humanities that are certainly enough for someone to support themselves on. It doesn't pay as well, nearly as well, as jobs that humanities student with a good GPA from a good university can get in the private sector, but its not bad at all.
I find it very odd that people are trying to deny my experience here.
I wasn't. But I'm not going to write an autobiography here. I already regret revealing personal details in this thread.
> in our experience its quite rare for a department not to have any funded PhDs with stipends.
Who is "our" and what is your "experience"? Are you referring to Telemakhos and yourself? Are either of you even former humanities PhD students? And how many departments have you surveyed such that you can make a judgment of rarity?
Look, its not your fault, some people don't end up in the right undergraduate programs, they don't meet the right people, make the right connections, and get into good PhD programs with funding. In any other case, if you don't have a lot of money and time to waste, its almost always a bad idea.
1) In your entire life, how many humanities PhD students without funding have you met? Perhaps you think that, somehow, you've magically met most of them, since you seem to believe there aren't that many.
2) It's just your opinion whether an individual "should've been pursuing a PhD".
> if the department you were in was so poorly funded that it couldn't give out stipends, then it's likely that you would've never found a job in academia afterwards anyway.
My former department has placed many tenure-track positions.
No, it was already said:
>>> We're wondering if you were perhaps mislead somewhat
>> I wasn't.
Nobody here has any evidence that their so-called "general" points are any more than their own personal anecdotal experience.
You're all trying to pretend that somehow you're experts and I'm just some clueless n00b, but that's ridiculous. At best, we're all on equal ground.
I think it’s fairly well established that better programs have better funding. This generally results in more funding for PhD prospects. It’s great that you want to share your anecdotal experience, but don’t pretend that it means it’s a incontrovertible generalizable truth.
>Nobody here has any evidence
When someone relies on absolute language like “nobody” or “everyone”, it’s a clue they are making an emotional rather than a reasoned argument. In this case, there is data about funding and PhD opportunities.
No. I don't know where in the world you got that from what I said.
> I think it’s fairly well established that better programs have better funding.
It's not that simple. Funding can vary widely by university and department. You want to make it uniform, but it's not.
The reputation of a program is determined by a number of factors, and it can change over time. A lot depends on the particular professors who happen to be there at a certain point. And sometimes giant public universities are able to compete with smaller elite private universities by sheer size, i.e., the size of the faculty.
I’m trying to be generous by helping to clarify what you mean otherwise it comes across as someone arguing for the sake of arguing.
>You want to make it uniform
Not at all, and that was never said or implied. My point is the opposite; that programs differ in funding. I just take it a step further to make the point that lower funding leads to less funded PhD opportunities. Take early during COVID; funding temporarily dropped when many foreign students could no longer attend meaning it was easier for a self funded student get into a top program (I know because that’s what I did.) That same funding dynamic plays out with lower ranked schools because they tend to get much less research dollars.
>the reputation of a program is determined by a number of factors
Again, I don’t think anyone is disputing this. The point is about how reputation is related to funding and funding is related to PhD opportunities.
It's funny how you don't think this applies to you, especially since you came in almost a day after the HN discussion started and long after everyone else stopped replying. In this way, you prolonged an argument that had already come to an end.
> That same funding dynamic plays out with lower ranked schools because they tend to get much less research dollars.
Well, the humanities tend not to get a lot of research dollars, period.
> The point is about how reputation is related to funding
And my point is that they're not as closely related as you seem to believe.
And it’s no coincidence that the humanities have the highest rate of self-funded PhDs.
>my point is that they’re not as closely related as you seem to believe
You may need to explain why govt research grants and endowments tend to follow the higher ranked institutions. And if you look at some of the ranking structure, they are explicitly tied to financial aid which is tied to endowments. I’m not saying it’s perfect or ideal, but ranking, money, and graduate positions are all intertwined.
Institutions. Not departments. Within the same institution, some departments may be very well funded, and some departments may be poorly funded. This is basic stuff that you should already know, and if you don't, then you certainly shouldn't be lecturing me.
My patience is worn out here. This back and forth is not interesting. I don't wish to continue with you any longer.
I have my PhD in Greek and Latin. I applied to many schools for my PhD program and, on the advice of professors who had told me what I repeated above, accepted admission to the department that gave me the best aid offer, not necessarily the one with the best reputation. They were right, and I never paid a dime for my education.
That's a personal choice, but it's an obvious tradeoff with downsides. If you have a non-monetary goal — after all, pursuing a PhD in the humanities would be a crazy way to make money — then why would you let money stand in your way?
> They were right, and I never paid a dime for my education.
They were right in what sense? You could also never pay a dime for your education by never pursuing a PhD. Regardless, you spent valuable years of your life on it. That's a big investment, and time is more precious than money.
I am glad that you admitted, though, that some more prestigious schools may have less financial aid. There appeared to be a kind of denial of this reality before.
Just because money isn’t a primary motivation doesn’t mean it isn’t a consideration.
I've been in different universities and the experiences for the same departments very considerably. You specify on your application whether you want your admission to be conditional on funding. One communications department for example would typically admit only 2 to 3 students per year on funding. I thought it was very competitive to get into. But of course if you tell them you're willing to pay your own way admission becomes much easier.
Other departments may not be that upfront with the deal but all people applying to grad school should understand these Dynamics.
That's presuming a whole hell of a lot, and it's insulting. You know absolutely nothing about me or my history except what I've already said, which is not much.
I'm not here to be second-guessed by anonymous rando strangers.
I'm reminded of that quote from Interstellar: "I never really fully considered the possibility that I wasn't the one."
For those downvoting: 54% of US graduate students take out student loans, while around 55% of US undergraduate students take out loans. The average undergraduate student loan debt is around $29000, while the average debt for graduate school borrowers is $71000. Given that there are five times as many undergraduate students as graduate students and given that a greater number of undergraduate students take out loans, the average graduate school debt would have to be nearly $150k to be greater than the undergraduate debt.
https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/loans/student-loans/avera...
https://www.forbes.com/advisor/student-loans/average-student...
https://www.cnn.com/cnn-underscored/money/average-student-lo...
https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/loans/student-loans/avera...
No, I was just googling for stats, and that's what I was able to find. Here's something else though: "46% of federal student loan debt belonged to graduate student borrowers in 2017." https://educationdata.org/average-graduate-student-loan-debt
That figure would be heavily skewed by medical school students.
they are the same though for the federal student loan program.
same with law degrees
In this particular conversation Harvardbro was obviously and factually incorrect, but his pompous rhetoric usually gets everybody else to silence themselves (not in awe).
Interestingly, Harvardbro only got accepted into the two schooltypes you mentioned (and no 2nd tiers).