Iron Gall Ink | Hacker News Reader

Iron Gall Ink

en.wikipedia.org

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I have not tried it, but this person has claimed to have improved his formulation of iron gall ink to no longer eat away at paper: https://simplifier.neocities.org/irongall

This company makes phenomenal Iron Gall Inks. The ink dries quite fast (I'm left handed, so that is important), shows very interesting shading properties and is super cheap.

I suggest you to try them. It's a nice experience.

https://www.rohrer-klingner.de/en/writing-ink/?lang=en

About the pens, you can find very nice fountain pens on aliexpress, starting from 4 USD including delivery. For example Jinhao X159, 9019 and 9016.

To have more shading, I suggest M nibs.

Keep in mind that R&K only has two iron gall inks: Sallix and Ebony. The rest is normal inks, but of good quality for sure.

KWZ got started as a producer of iron gall inks but has branched out a bit since. But they still have a large range of colors of IG inks, potentially the largest: https://mountainofink.com/blog/kwz-ink

I have some of them, the gold one is a lot of fun as it darkens as you're writing.

got Salix inked MB146 in my pocket right as I write this! It's a really nice ink for higher end pens (I probably wouldn't dare putting it into anything with a steel nib).

If the long-term properties / resistance of the ink are important, R&K also makes one of the few archive grade inks - their Dokumentus. A bit more expensive, but still affordable compared to alternatives. It's nice, but a bit higher maintenance than the Salix / IG inks. I think part of the permanence is achieved by some powder emulsion, so long term storage of an inked pen can be an issue (past maybe a month or so, or even a week in hot and dry weather).

at least 3: black, salix, scabiosa

I make this! (I got into making dyes for all natural tie-dye shirts)

It's cool and relatively easy, but it will eat your paper. It's a cool novelty, but not for anything you want to store long term.

Yes, iron gall inks are acidic and best not used on regular paper. But they last pretty well on vellum (eg Book of Kells, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Kells, on which all the lettering is done with iron gall inks)

Lots of interesting discussion here: https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/226717-archiv...

Interesting about it being destructive to the paper - the Wikipedia article seemed to describe old manuscripts lasting a long time with the ink. Is it that the paper we have now is less compatible? I'm guessing you might also be into paper, since you're into ink.

Do you collect your own galls? The main reason I found iron gall ink fascinating, was that the ink is described as being common and widespread, but made from something I had never heard of - or, at least, paid attention to. I like oak trees and acorns, and I'm quite sure I've never seen a gall. I think if I had, it would seem like an incredible thing for a tree to produce, until I heard the explanation about the wasps.

Galls remind me of bagworm moths (1). I saw one for the first time a couple of years ago, and it absolutely felt like encountering an alien creature until I found out what they are. The feeling lasted a few hours too, because I had no idea what name or word to search for. One of the many people I showed my video to recognised it.

Edit: I see a sibling comment answered my paper question.

1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagworm_moth

> Is it that the paper we have now is less compatible?

The article describes how the oxidation, which causes the ink to darken, causes a reaction between tannic acid and these newly created ferric ions. Doesn't that neutralise the acidity? If so, perhaps it is a case of 'survivorship bias' in the old manuscripts which do survive, as they had just the right ratio of tannic acid to iron ions to completely neutralise, whereas the books written with ink containing not enough iron ions would be damaged and discarded.

As another poster already said, most old manuscripts were not written on paper, but on vellum or another kind of parchment (i.e. on leather), which has a very different chemical behavior from paper.

Paper was first used in Europe in the 11th century, by the Arabs. It has spread slowly during the next centuries, but it became really important only about the same time with printing.

I wonder whether oak gall ink is vegan. The larvae of the gallflies (actually wasps) that grow in oak galls emerge as adults in early summer, according to the Wildlife Trust, leaving the gall mostly intact. Thus, theoretically, it should be possible to make oak gall ink without harming any animals. It would still be an animal product, but produced only from by-products of a wild animal. But then again, perhaps changes in the chemical composition of the gall throughout the larvae's development make such late-harvested galls unsuitable for ink production.

You only choose the galls with the hole in the bottom that indicates that the wasp has eaten its way out and gone. It is pretty obvious which ones still have a wasp in them.

Interesting question. First I'd say veganism isn't a monolith, so opinions will probably differ on the matter. For instance, there is some debate about whether figs are vegan since they are pollinated by fig wasps which then die inside (but are completely absorbed by the fig). I think galls fall into a similar space, but perhaps are less of an issue since they are nominally rid of the insects once they are harvested (though I somehow doubt it can be guaranteed to be completely larvae-free).

If you're writing on parchment, I'd say the veganness of your ink is the least of your concerns.

Maybe I was skimming too fast, maybe someone can answer here: Historically oak or other galls were used as a source to produce vegetable acids (tannic or gallic acid). I gather from the gallic acid article that galls are easy to crush. Is this why they are used rather than some other presumably more-readily-available part of the tree? Is there something unique about the gall, e.g. it contains more of certain chemicals/biomaterials?

Not an expert, just got nerd sniped by the wikipedia article. But from I read about the galls, the parasite (wasp, aphid, etc) that causes it can influence the structure/makeup of the gall through chemical/hormonal secretions. Usually the parasite wants nutrients so it "programs" the tree to grow the gall with a higher nutritional content.

As an aside, these are actually excellent questions to ask your favorite LLM. I had to read the entire wikipedia article to have a basic understanding which took me 5 minutes, but I asked chatgpt "do tree galls have more nutrition or otherwise differ from the other parts of a tree?" and "how does the organism causing the gall manipulate the tree's growth process?" and got really detailed correct-sounding responses.

Oak galls have a much high tannic acid content than any other part of the tree, 4 or 5 times higher if memory serves. It is also much easier to get to the tannins than in the wood which has better uses like lumber and fuel.

I have handled a letter from John Ruskin (victorian art critic) which was like lacework, from the Iron-Gall ink eating out the paper. Very odd effect if you haven't seen it before. (it was not kept in archive conditions)

You can add a little calcium carbonate to these inks to give them a little shine and offset some of the acidity.

The really neat thing about these inks is that they are soluble when made, and you can write on a document, then - as they dry - , the soluble iron tannates that work into the fibers form an Fe3+ tannate, which is insoluble - you aren't writing on the surface, you're dying the fibers. This is why palimpsest can occur when documents where scraped and re-used (so you can read the originals with Xray methods)

Source: I have a battery patent based on iron-gall inks (US10749168B1), and it's fun stuff to play with! (see more @ http://bigattichouse.com )

Iron inks are fun. They're pretty stable, stain like crazy, but some of them will eat away at thin things like paper, so they're best used on leathers, velours, and other tanned materials. I make a blue using ferric ammonium sulfate and sodium ferrocyanide mixed in water.

Iron Gall ink was used on both the Magna Carta and the Declaration of Independence. It can last for many centuries, unfortunately it can fade if exposed to strong sunlight, which is why the declaration of independence is so faded. https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/3206_charters.html

Has the ink on the Voynich manuscript been dated? As far as I know, not.

The parchment / vellum is dated to 1425 or so but the iron gall ink could be anywhere up to almost current day.

Is there any strong evidence of the age of the writing?

If you want to write with a permanent ink today that would still be there after a few hundred years, what would be your best choice?

Noodler's Ink describes the durability of their inks in some detail.

https://noodlersink.com/about-us/noodlers-durable-ink-classi...

What they call Dokumentenecht in Germany should be suitable; it's made so that even with technical intervention you can't feasibly bleach it without destroying the paper in the process.

From the fountain pen side, Carbon pigmented inks seem to survive anything you can do without destroying the paper itself. I use Platinum Carbon Black in my lab notebooks.

I've only recently started using Platinum Carbon Black, and I'm quite happy with it. Addresses the one major concern I've always had with fountain pens, which is how illegible everything becomes when exposed to liquid. Not that that's stopped me using fountain pens, and not that it's been a huge problem in practice, but it's nice to have a durable ink.

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