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Comment by jstummbillig | Hacker News Reader

Not a big fan of kids (as in having them around), not a dad, counterpoint: If there's one societal function that's fundamental it's having kids. I think forcing random people to put up with your children is probably the most defensible thing you can force upon other people.

Not to say that it's not great if you can be considerate to others while you have kids. But considering how inconsiderate kids are and how much everyone around you depends on you having kids, some amount of putting up with those kids, collectively, seems very okay.

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> But considering how inconsiderate kids are and how much everyone around you depends on you having kids, some amount of putting up with those kids, collectively, seems very okay.

Which is why letting you bring your kids, but then also politely letting you know when your kids are being a distraction should be a totally acceptable compromise.

The problem is only when a parent takes any amount of confrontation to be a form of societal oppression and writes an expose on it on Business Insider (for example).

Assume they know their kids are a distraction (the implication that they might not makes me cringe a little) and they still want to participate. How much is that a burden we share vs a right parents have to fight for and can be denied?

If it’s a free event, have at it. If I had to pay to attend, then I see it differently.

Just a nit, but there’s a big difference between establishing a social norm and establishing a legally protected right.

I think society, in general, is fairly considerate of parents. But it also means, in certain contexts, parents need to be considerate of the rest of society. If your kid is being inconsiderate at a professional event, or church, or a movie theater etc., I think the reasonable thing to do is step outside until your child is able to come back to being considerate.

Is this an opinion you have as a parent or a non-parent?

Do parents not expect other parents to act with consideration to other members of society? I believe the fundamental principle remains the same in either instance.

Whether or not I have a disability does not change my mind about whether people in a wheelchair should board a plane first.

My kids get to be the absolute center of my world, but I’m careful not to expect them to be the center of anyone else’s.

being a parent changes your perception about the challenges other parents face. it is one thing for me as a parent to realize that my kid is disruptive and step outside unprompted, but quite another for someone to ask me to leave. the latter would make me very uncomfortable, and needs to be handled with extreme tact and consideration.

>the latter would make me very uncomfortable

Genuine question, but why would this make you feel uncomfortable?

>needs to be handled with extreme tact and consideration.

Did you think they acted without tact? By the authors own account, they seemed very polite and even sent a follow-up email. The founders account of the interaction made it seem even more polite (asking her if she needed help, offering to hold the baby, offering other areas where she could still hear the talk but not be as much of a distraction etc.)

being asked to leave implies that i am either oblivious towards the disruption my kids cause, or that i simply misjudge the situation and thought my kids are not as disruptive as the person asking me felt about it. both imply a judgement of my behavior, and that alone will make me uncomfortable. i do admit that i am biased by my experience in china where something like that would never happen as i explain here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41438834

not having experienced the situation i can't judge, but the fact that it prompted the person to write an article about it to me suggests that on some level it did make her feel uncomfortable. if it hadn't it wouldn't have been worth mentioning.

Sure. After reading both accounts, it came across to me that the founder with the baby was being overly sensitive and chose to steer into the least favorable interpretation. We should strive to be polite but we shouldn't avoid confrontation just because someone may take it the wrong way, especially when doing so comes at the detriment of other people's experiences.

having read the response now too, i have to agree

I hold myself to that standard but I also think that we should be tolerant of young children amongst us. We were all there once.

I don’t think anyone is advocating intolerance towards children, but rather trying to define what is reasonable. A loud child in a restaurant might be ok, but a child screaming and throwing food less so. After reading both accounts, I get the feeling the founder with a baby has an expectation that is miscalibrated to what most people consider would be reasonable.

after moving to china any preconceptions i had about western people being considerate of children (and parents) went out the window. chinese not only tolerate children, but they allow them to get away with anything, almost to a fault even. i have never once seen anyone complain about children. they bring them to work and they care when someone needs help in levels that a western parent would consider intrusive. and any disruption they simply ignore. after experiencing that, asking a parent to step outside to me now feels rather rude and inconsiderate.

Do you think this is how it's always been in China or do you think this is a response to how their attitudes towards children have changed?

The US tends to have a very individualistic outlook compared to many other societies, so I think differences should be expected to differ from culture to culture. In the US, it would make me very uncomfortable to have keep my child in a movie theater making noises if I felt like it was inhibiting on someone else's enjoyment of a movie, for instance.

i believe it has been like that all the time, because in the times without insurance and pensions children where the ones who cared for you when you get old and so people depended on their kids and it logically makes sense that they would show extreme care for them growing up. (this also reflects in the attitude of future grandparents who to this day push their children to get married and have kids. sometimes in extreme ways)

>the times without insurance and pensions children where the ones who cared for you when you get old and so people depended on their kids and it logically makes sense that they would show extreme care for them growing up

This has been the case for most agrarian economies, including the US in the past so I’m not sure that’s a good discriminator.

that's a fair point. i haven't read anything about how children were treated in china in the past. i am more familiar with stories about treatment of children in historical europe. in short, in europe children were seen as a necessary nuisance (someone mentioned cattle)

but from that i want to draw a few observations: i think attitude towards children in europe either has improved or it hasn't changed. if it hasn't changed, then why should it have changed in china? but even if it has improved, on one hand it is still way behind china by comparison, but on the other hand we stopped depending on direct children a few decades earlier than china, so if there was a parallel development then china would have to be a few decades behind europe with their changing attitude towards children. that being not the case suggests that there was no change in attitude at all, or at least not one prompted by a modern pension system and therefore the chinese attitude towards children could not be a new thing.

Even if they have changed, I seriously doubt you can distill something complex like societal interactions and norms down to a simple one-variable model like the introduction of pensions.

right. another reason why i am skeptical that any change happened.

Society norms definitely shift. My point is that that change is generally the result of a highly dynamic and complicated process, rather than pointing to a single cause.

This has not matched my experience in seeing children being raised in other countries in Asia, though I have not spent significant time in China itself, particularly around parents and their children, so I can't comment there. I will say that does not match the behavior I have seen of first generation or even second generation Chinese immigrants in America, however.

My anecdotal experience, primarily driven by my time in Japan as well as living in a place that has a very large Asian immigrant population is that they are as strict when it becomes to the behavior of their children as any Westerner, and often moreso. When I go to the local H-mart, I am far more likely to see a parent corralling their child and getting them to behave than when I see similar behavior out of kids from western parents at the Safeway

Perhaps this holds true in China itself, but I don't believe the distinction is purely East vs. West.

When I go to the local H-mart, I am far more likely to see a parent corralling their child and getting them to behave

i don't want to claim that my experience is the norm, but this sentence in particular reminded me that my distinct first impression in china was like "boy they do let their kids here get away with anything"

add to that the reputation of the single child policy creating "little emperors" because of how parents raise their child.

but again, this is just my experience. it may well possible that this is a small minority, and that i just never saw parents corralling their children because they possibly were already effective at raising them to be well behaved.

it is also worth noting that i observed a much higher tolerance at people behaving out of the norm. (but then it is also a much rarer occurrence and it is also not considered polite to confront people)

I am a father of three and I strongly disagree with you. I respect the right for others to enjoy their day without having to deal with someone else's loud or misbehaving children. I myself don't enjoy strangers' kids being loud and fully empathise with people who don't have kids. I have no problem removing myself and my children from a place is we're being a nuisance.

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