Brazil Court votes unanimously to uphold X ban. Users switch to Threads, Bluesky
euronews.com
euronews.com
In context though, it is very unclear that you weren't talking about Musk.
> Well no, if someone is a habitual liar or always wrong, then you're free to assume they are lying or wrong. The ordinary opinion of random people is not a court of law where innocence is presumed.
The GP comment you were replying to specifically mentions giving Elon the benefit of the doubt. Are you implying that you shouldn't give benefit of the doubt to a random person that you deem a habitual liar and therefore assume is always lying or wrong? Or are you implying that Elon is a habitual liar, should be assumed always lying/wrong, and not given the benefit of the doubt?
Threatening their legal rep with prison is, however, perfectly reasonable. They have refused to comply with the law several times, were fined several times and have refused to pay such fines several times. With that, they have committed multiple felonies and it makes absolute sense they are faces with the consequences of that.
The legal rep for Twitter in Brazil was not just some Lawyer defending Twitter in court. They were effectively the Owner and President of the Twitter subsidiary in Brazil, and as such are legally responsible for any and all dealings of the company in the country.
One of the principles Brazilian Law is based off is something called "Principle of Inertia" (which I can't find a proper translation since I keep stumbling into sixth grade Physics).
It reasons that the Juditiary Power will must not and does not have to act unless provoked to do so.
In practice, this means that while the law states that platforms operating in Brazil need a legal representative, that is not required or enforced until there's a reason to. In this case, it could be if anyone ever sues Bluesky, if they collect payments in local currency or transfer money in/out of the country, or if they provide a service that is regulated such as medical or financial advice.
So far, none of these have happened, or have not happened in a scale or frequency that has prompted action.
I expect that as people migrate over to Bluesky they will eventually be required to provide a representative or follow the fate of Twitter.
To me, that's punishing the users, who have no part in the legal ordeal, for the incompetence of whatever company or agency which was supposed to block the site.
And of course, complying with the law and courts order
But Brazil justice is already in contact with then, as long as they offer a place for justice to send court orders and comply with then, as they have done so far, they wont have any problems..
At least on Mastodon, any instance stores IP, so....
You can target a list of suspected spammer IPs, though that's often a losing game of cat and mouse where you end up missing some spammers and catching legitimate users in the crossfire.
For Mastodon, all of this is manual, so it will be up to moderators on the server....
Personally I see that as a very serious problem. Its one thing if it can be proven that legal counsel knowingly breaks the law. Its entirely different if the lawyer simply disagrees with the judge. Judges shouldn't be able to threaten counsel with jail time of seizure of assets simply because the judge disagrees with the legal argument a client wishes to make.
Here’s a post from Eugen Rochko on August 31st (2 days ago):
“Aug 10, 10 sign-ups from #Brazil. Aug 28, 152 sign-ups from Brazil. Today, 4.2k sign-ups from Brazil. Portuguese (Brazil) has already entered the list of top 8 active languages for the last 30 days.”
What about the rights of people who want to use twitter? Would you use the same characterization for Chinese censorship (ie. "The New York Times is not an fundamental right, as access to users isn't a right to [The New York Times Company]")?
The goal is absolute harmony. Especially at the expense of rights.
For me, freedom of speech is part of what brings societies forward, and that includes deep changes which obviously means unstable societies at some point.
Humans would be stuck in Stone Age if we would have had only stable societies.
I agree with you and mistyped. I really need to proof my comments better.
I think the goal is not harmony but value and beauty.
Now, part of the order makes it illegal to use VPN to access Twitter, which is an actual free speech issue, if you'd care to argue on those grounds.
All the websites China bans are also ostensibly for "failing to comply with the law". Would you say those bans are also "not a free speech issue"?
This part was later struck down by the court.
Musk is willing to censor for Turkey but not for Brazil. It’s a massive double standard. His company has major shareholders who are part of the Saudi monarchy. Twitter under Musk isn’t a company that can make any honest claim to care about democratic free speech.
He’s already suspended left-wing and Musk-critical journalists and activists without a specific TOS violation or explanation while not doing the same for anyone that aligns with his ideology.
He doesn’t have kind of the moral high ground that other companies do on these matters, e.g., the kind that Google had when they exited China.
I also think that using china’s style of censorship as an analogy to other styles of censorship is also potentially a flawed exercise. I would argue that things like Germany’s censorship of Nazi ideology is a positive for human rights and democracy. Even the USA’s prohibition of the government’s speech on the topic of religion and political speech is technically a form of censorship - self-censorship, essentially.
I could imagine a hypothetical democratic government where speech is generally free but anti-democratic ideology is not tolerated, since that speech oversteps the boundaries of free speech and crosses into a territory of speech that harms others.
In other words, a society that overcomes the paradox of tolerance.
For example, Trump has spoken of elimination of term limits, becoming a dictator for a day, and has generally advocated for political violence. Because of his rhetoric there are a large percentage of people in the USA who would end democracy entirely if it meant that their dear leader Trump was president for life rather than a member of the opposition party. In the USA the first amendment protects him, but I would argue that it should not - that a democracy that intends to survive the constant onslaught of opportunistic authoritarians should criminalize anti-democratic activity and speech.
(I am not specifically commenting on Brazil’s orders to censor people on the Twitter platform because I am not equipped with that context. I don’t know specifically who those people are, what those people said, said and whether that court order was sensible. I merely speak in philosophical hypotheticals here - and at the end of the day whether my hypotheticals are “right” or “wrong” is irrelevant in the context of Elon’s asymmetrical application of “free speech”)
Interoperability should cover this. If the platform is barred from doing business in a given country, users should be able to download all their data and move it to another platform of their choice. People must not be made hostages of the platforms.
Companies absolutely have rights especially when they're owned by an individual. Banding together in groups does not eliminate human rights.
He has, in fact, zero rights to communicate in Brazil.
Twitter since elon’s criminal “leadership” has become a bot-infested cesspool of racist bullshit, where he unilaterally censors whatever he dislikes in his sissy fits. In this form, this is a manipulation device, and good riddance.
If I were a Brasilian, I would certainly deeply resent the idea that my government treats me like a digital serf who is only allowed to move within a certain "area".
I don't believe in merits of censorship, regardless of all the putative benefits it always claims. And yeah, I am aware that Musk isn't a good personal example either. But it is worse if an entity with a monopoly on violence (= government) engages in that.
The idea that governments should stick their fingers into anything they want is literally the definition of a totalitarian society.
If that is true then why do Biden, Kamala, the DNC, and most European politicians continue to post heavily on it?
You can easily verify my statement if you wish, look up all the instances where Elon decided to ban stuff he dislikes, the rate of flat out racist bullshit, etc.
The sanest implementation would probably just be some nominal monthly charge that an account holder can pay to Twitter to have their account publicly accessible to all.
You have a right to vote in your country, doesn't mean that you can demand they collect the vote in your bedroom and claim your rights are violated if they refuse.
Individual rights should be safeguarded against abuse as much as possible. Maybe it means that Musk should block less, but it certainly means that governments shouldn't muzzle people too easily.
In this case, an entire country of 200 million is threatened with massive fines for the horrible crime of using VPN to access a social network.
Yeah, Brasil really makes a good member of BRICS with this judgment.
Before Musk bought Twitter there were plenty of people arguing on here that in the age of the internet Twitter and places like it are essential as forums of public discourse, and access to them should be as unlimited as possible.
Twitter refusing bans and continuing operations in a hostile country was some people's wet dream just a couple years ago. I guess it's a lesson to be careful what you wish for.
In this specific case, Twitter doesn’t provide an essential service and, if it did, that’d need to be regulated and forced to provide services in an equitable and fair way.
The report here asserts that every single other Brazilian Supreme Court Justice has backed that ban.
You may not be a lawyer, like Musk, but I'm led to believe that all the Justices of the Braziian Supreme Court are, and that they understand the Brazilian Legal system.
Musk et al bent over backwards for India and Turkey and suddenly gained principles in Brazil?
A Supreme Court Justice who rules on constitional law is fairly definitive, now even more so .. in India and Turkey X-itter sided with the the ruling conservative right wing party in power, in Brazil X-itter sided with the losing conservative right wing party that spread election denial propaganda.
There's a clear pattern.
The question isn't what morals the company decides to stand on other than the moral that they will only comply with government requests and court rulings that are legal under that jurisdiction's laws.
I don't know details of Turkish or Indian law, but I do generally understand their governments to be more oppressive than the US. It seems plausible that the requests made by those governments were legal there, as opposed to the Brazilian request that Twitter is claiming not to be legal there.
Supreme Court justices are in fact fallible. There have been a handful of decisions coming out of SCOTUS that many have been extremely unhappy with to the point of claiming the rulings were unlawful or unconstitutional. Is it impossible that the Brazilian judge made a request/demand and threat that isn't actually lawful?
I’m sure that number will never increase.
Edit: also looking at the history here... They fought those bans too. I'm guessing, due to Indias importance to the IT industry, twitter was unable to pull out entirely, leaving their employees vulnerable if they didn't comply.
Not sure about turkey, but it looks like in this case, they are able to avoid censorship by pulling out entirely. Brazil is an inconsequential country.
I don't want un-elected social media billionaires making political decisions for me.
The more pressing issue is governments censoring opposition
Twitter is made of people and owned by people who use it to make political decisions. That was the case before Musk and is still the case after Musk.
Pre-Musk.
July 2022: https://techcrunch.com/2022/07/05/twitter-sues-india-governm...
October 2022: Musk buys Twitter.
In Turkey and India, there was no such concern.
it went to court, and then the Brazilian supreme court -- and they lost.
...and so they have someone to hold ~hostage~ responsible if something goes wrong
>and ban like 7 accounts
And you think they're going to stop there?
That's the whole point, you know. We think this supreme court judge is violating the constitution by doing things like ordering the censorship of "fake news". These were political accounts engaged in speech of a political nature. They cannot be censored.
What do you do when the guy who's supposed to interpret and apply the constitution starts blatantly violating it? I have no idea. People actually tried asking the brazilian military to intervene. This guy called that an antidemocratic act despite the fact not one soul voted for him. Called it a coup attempt. Then he put those people in a gulag.
They literally just approved a law against misinformation.
PL 2630/2020, the proposed "fake news" law. Not approved, despite their unrelenting attempts at passing it with urgency. At least not yet. And certainly not before all this stuff began, which would be in 2019.
> They literally just approved a law against misinformation.
Huh? I searched for newly approved "fake news" laws but couldn't find any new information. Why don't you cite some?
Here is the BBC Brasil article on the topic. The ban has been upheld by the entire court, not just its more activist judges.
A. The law in Brazil says any company needs a legal representative in the country. X does not.
B. Under hate speech and misinformation laws some accounts were asked to be removed. They did not.
C. Because the company wasn’t replying at all to court requests, they consider that obstruction of justice vs trying to appeal the court
D. As far as Starlink they consider it a “de facto economic group under the control of Elon Musk” which is mostly true.
Follow the chain of events.
The "fake news" inquisition started when some magazine ran a damning article on one of these judges.
In retaliation to that, they granted themselves extensive powers. They gave themselves the right to investigate, prosecute, judge, sentence and punish crimes against themselves.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39966382
Then comes the 2022 election. These judges become openly partisan. They start censoring Bolsonaro supporters for "fake news". This is what I claim is unconstitutional.
Obviously, Bolsonaro was not reelected. These judges are very happy about that. They're so happy they go to public events and showboat about being the ones who personally defeated Bolsonaro.
Fast forward to today. The censorship continues. They keep ordering X to ban accounts. Which led to it pulling out of the country. Which led to it getting blocked due to not having a local legal representative. Which led to everything we are witnessing in real time right now.
There is no problem with requiring local legal representation. The problem is with the B point in your timeline. They shouldn't be "asking" (actually ordering) the removal of accounts for "misinformation" at all. That is political censorship and it is unconstitutional.
Therefore everything that happened after B, should not have happened at all.
X is big enough but it’s silly of Brazil to require a literal physical presence. They can serve whatever they need electronically to wherever X is these days.
twitter servers are in the US yet they are having problems in brazil..
If server are in space and company refuse to abide to each country laws they will have the access to their servers blocked just the same..
One can argue about the politics of this all day. There are political views to be discussed about the morality of the requests to ban accounts versus the morality of keeping the accounts online, but the law is the law. If you want to operate on a certain country you need to abide by that country's laws, there aren't really any exceptions anywhere in the World.
Lots of platforms operate in Brazil without a legal representative, the country is actually very lax about that. There's no Substack or Medium office as far as I know, and I'm writing this comment on Hackernews without any issue. Generally, the legal representation is only required when someone takes legal action against the platform for some reason.
Obviously larger platforms like Twitter, Instagram and their likes have lots of legal actions in local courts. They also collect a shitload of ad revenue from local companies, and in both cases they are required to have a local representation. Twitter has laid-off all their engineering and marketing in Brazil when Musk bought it, and just recently decided to close down their legal and finance office to avoid paying the said fines. Whatever the political stand-off that brought them to this, there's no reasonable justification to stand with Twitter now.
"I don't aggree with your laws" is not a valid reason for a company to break these laws in any country, for any law.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_disobedience
> Any man who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust and willingly accepts the penalty by staying in jail to arouse the conscience of the community on the injustice of the law is at that moment expressing the very highest respect for the law.
If you believe the law is immoral, then break the law and accept the consequences.
You are always morally responsible for your actions. The fact some of your actions may have been compelled by law does not absolve you. Nazis who were just following orders were still punished.
Companies are not citizens.
Twitter has little to gain by complying with the judge's ban before challenging it in court, but they do have a lot to lose. It'd be a different story if Twitter was being challenged by the US Supreme Court, they have mhch more leverage to damage Twitter if they don't comply.
This one, at least, isn't really leverage. If they did comply the ad revenue would be lost anyway. If Twitter does somehow win a legal challenge they can at least try to sue for lost ad revenue, they likely couldn't make that case if they chose to comply.
I'm not sure how they can legally go after SpaceX here. Definitely not claiming to know Brazilian law here, it just seems surprising that they could be roped in only for having the same founder/CEO. Unless I'm mistaken they aren't even sibling companies under a shared corporate parent.
If they had complied, only a subset of Twitter accounts would have been removed from the website. All over 100 million Brazilian users would still be generating traffic to them and the ad revenue that comes with it. I think this is pretty large leverage.
> I'm not sure how they can legally go after SpaceX here. > it just seems surprising that they could be roped in only for having the same founder/CEO.
From my understanding (which is developing along with the whole situation), even big names in Brazilian law are disputing this. So far I haven't seen anyone say the decision was illegal, but I have seen some questions being raised.
That said, my (very poor) understanding is that it's not because Musk is founder or CEO, but because he is the largest investor in both, exerts significant control over both, and essentially uses both in tandem in order to pursue his interests. Again in my very poor understanding, these factors combined made the judge rule the 2 companies more or less like one large financial group, giving him the ability to freeze one company's assets as insurance for the other's unpaid fines.
Pardon my lack of legalese or proper understanding and description of things. Hopefully this helps a bit on your own journey of understanding.
Luck for you it was not the national government who banned someone on a social media platform, it was a Court of Justice.
They can send someone to jail, expel someone who is illegally in our country and "banning people" on twitter is what gets you? Weird hill to die on.
> “When we attempted to defend ourselves in court, Judge de Moraes threatened our Brazilian legal representative with imprisonment. Even after she resigned, he froze all of her bank accounts,” the post from X Global Government Affairs notes.
Bunch of reasonable folks these Brazilian judges.
In Brazil, Judges = Gods.
I have seen the barbarities that some people say in Brazil . It’s an incredibly racist and classist country sometimes.
Also you can get arrested for breaking the law?
Flávio Dino (Appointed by Lula) Cármen Lúcia (Appointed by Lula) Cristiano Zanin (Appointed by Lula) Luiz Fux (Appointed by Lula)
Not sure if it's better than Twitter for censorship.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/27/us/politics/elon-musk-kam...
https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-grok-ai-fake-elect...
Unless it's @ElonJet tweeting. Or journalists tweeting about @ElonJet.
Making this a about about free speech is astounding in multiple ways. First, are people not aware that Brazil is a different sovereign nation, where the US idea of free speech may not apply? And a country with a military dictatorship not many years ago, with laws specifically in place to prevent another coup, which Twitter chose to ignore here?
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/jul/10/twitter-f...
"Twitter has become a space where antisemitism and Holocaust denial is just growing and growing."
I hope Germany is the next to ban.
His definition is of free speech is that he can say whatever he likes and ban whoever he wants.
I find your proposal of banning speech that is "fake news" equally disturbing. Trump was very happy to slap the "fake news" label when he was in power. What he also had the ability to shut down speech on the same basis?
This was the justice system that ruled that some content should be blocked, and this decision can be appealed bu the person that was blocked..
The problem here is that twitter, that was not a party in the case, decided they wanted to appeal, something they cannot do in Brazil legal system..
Brazilian government would get mercilessly fact checked on X pretty much every single time they posted anything. It was actually pretty funny. These people lie through their teeth about anything and everything. It comes naturally to them. I have videos of our current president admitting he makes up numbers on the spot when speaking in public. Yeah, these people just make stuff up, admit it and people still believe them. They say something stupid like "100 million brazilians are dying of hunger" and people eat it up.
Would you have us trust these clowns to tell fake from fact?
https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/trump-harris-election...