Hawai'i-Issued Real IDs Can Be Added to Apple Wallet Beginning August 28
hidot.hawaii.gov
hidot.hawaii.gov
This drives me nuts…a police officer can look up my license if I offer my name and address. Why do I need to carry an easily lost piece of plastic and paper to prove I’m me? It’s harder to forge a record on the DMV db than my license…
This is a genuine question, if anyone knows the reasoning behind this I’d be thrilled.
I can understand a reasonable wish from police departments to verify someone's identity even if they're in a place with bad cell coverage, or during a thunderstorm, or when the radio's busted. An ID card is pretty strong evidence of your real ID that doesn't require power or a radio connection or a computer. A cop can just look at it and say, no, that's clearly your older brother.
Having spent a lot of time around today's kids, particularly the ones who grew up in my house, I have the utmost faith in their ability to create new kinds of mischief. They'll be alright.
A place I used to work had 3D badges, so that your face kind of appeared to be sticking out as you inspected the badges. (Lenticular lenses.) I thought this was a neat security feature, so I color printed a copy of my badge and just put it in my badge holder in front of the actual badge to see if anyone would notice mine wasn't 3D. They did not notice, never in 5 years.
But, in general, the further you get from physical artifacts and in-person authentication, the easier it gets to fabricate. I was pretty annoyed earlier this year when I had to show up at a brokerage office for something that was done over email and phone during the pandemic. But I also sorta understand the preference.
There's definitely a tradeoff involved with doing everything online vs. physically showing up in an office.
You know, it's pretty common for the police to accept registration and insurance on a phone.
I suspect officers will be able to use their own judgement and maybe bow to social pressure to accept it anyway.
Their own judgement might also go the other way depending on circumstances, and even with a digital license available, they might require a physical one.
(without taking the phone)
If somebody looking roughly like you (or your DMV photo anyway) learns your name and date of birth, that could be an issue: Unlike a physical or digital license/ID, you can't revoke biometrics, and you can't change your name/DOB.
Delightful.
It's only a few years until anonymity on the internet will be a thing of the past. Every account will be tied to your government issued ID card.
In the mean time, enjoy the novelty of using bluetooth to prove your age to the bartender.
Some of us, myself included, would prefer communicating with people who use their own identity so they can be held accountable for their actions.
Not everything needs to be on the public record permanently; among other problems, it makes it that much harder for people to walk themselves back from a previous extreme position as they grow up, make new experiences etc.
Of course it depends on the use case, but for some, pseudonyms are really great. It's working pretty well over here, for example!
That doesn't mean there can't be optional forums or messaging platforms where everyone is required to have state-issued IDs.
We're pretty close to a world where anonymous forums are going to be overrun with LLMs that are somewhat indistinguishable from real people.
In addition, the main True Identity (TM) platforms are Facebook and Twitter, private companies in a privileged position regarding identity verification. I'd much rather have a public institution issuing PKI enabled ID cards and having individual states operating as certificate authorities with DMVs being the gatekeepers.
All I need is the technology, I don't want the product. The product intrudes on my life and personal decisions. Same with this ID/Wallet thing. I want the technology. I don't want the product.
If you're constantly hitting those "safety pauses" you're spending far too much time paying attention to your stereo than the road.
On the other hand, for the few sites that do have a legitimate need for wanting to verify my identity (banks, tax authorities etc.), I feel much better about using actual eID than doing the weird dance of sharing my SSN (the worst bearer token in history) and maybe uploading a photo of my license that they might (but probably won't) check for being lost/stolen/involved in prior identity theft.
Unlike with the "photo of a physical ID" non-model, eID even has the potential to only share some assertions about you selectively (e.g. only your age, but not your name or even date of birth, or a company-specific/non-cross-correlateable identifier).
Any such service should be free and open to many providers, or not available at all. No fast-lanes for Apple customers. This is not how a fair, equitable public service should work.
- "Requires iPhone 8 or later with iOS 16.5 or later, Apple Watch Series 4 or later with WatchOS 9.5 or later" (hidot.hawaii.gov)
(I've browsed around this website and there doesn't appear to be any other option equivalent to this one).
They are forcing each state to build an integration, own the infrastructure, database, and code. Apple is also using a known standard. Using a standard is a good thing, and i’m glad that the state is not beholden to apple to run a core government service.
I’m glad apple didn’t push some proprietary BS and try to lock the state into their custom solution.
https://www.macrumors.com/2021/11/15/apple-strict-terms-on-u...
the article uses emotionally charged language like “charges footed to the taxpayer”, but IMO that’s a good thing. It benefits tax payers.
Can't remember if they're even usable for domestic travel yet.
I'd be up for a mobile passport, too. Already has a chip anyway that gets read, so what's the difference? And on the plus side that would be something you wouldn't accidentally forget in the hotel safe.
What I'd want to establish, however, is what the backup plan looks like if your phone gets lost/stolen/destroyed. How quickly can I bet up and running on a replacement device, and what hoops will I have to jump through to get it working again?
But, then, I don't really like not to have a paper map of some sort when hiking in unfamiliar locations either.
I have 21yos come in all the time nowadays without a wallet/license/debit cards expecting to use digitalID and ApplePay for literally everything in their lives.
We reluctantly take Apple Pay now, the reluctance is it's not like opening a normal tab. The card number is rolling so you have to give give me a card first to even open a tab or else I have to trust you're "Jon at Seat 3 Who Will Pay Me Later", because I can't ring you out without grabbing your phone and shoving it at my POS right when you're paying out. Also I have to have you unlock your phone and bring it over to my POS and hope it doesn't lock by the time I scan it. And if its busy and you want to Apple Pay you're a nightmare.
I flew to Vegas last year with only a digital ID and paper temp, lost mine right before flight. I actually don't think I had any problems other than being brought aside to be searched at each airport since I was an "Exception" with my temp license but I know places for sure won't accept a digital ID yet for drinks.
Retail and a lot of places just aren't there with the tech yet.
Also.. will there really be an era where nobody can use fake IDs? They're kinda fun to catch..
When I use Apple Pay at a gas pump, it first creates a temporary charge for more than I'm likely to spend. When I'm done pumping, it charges the actual amount and removes the reservation. I wonder if a bar tab could eventually work like that, where you temporarily hold $50 or whatever and then reconcile it when I close my tab. As a bonus, you'd never have someone forget and leave there credit card there again.
State DMVs don't have to use Apple Wallet, in any case. I have a New York license that uses NY DMV's own (pretty clunky, to be honest) solution based on Bluetooth and QR codes.
I live in California and have been wanting this for a while now. I just recently found out that California has a limited public rollout from last year [1], but it does _not_ have Apple Wallet support, yet anyways.
Nice job Hawaii!
https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2024/08/drivers-licenses-and-...
1. It tells me I need to refresh my license. I click the button.
2. It tells me I need to log into the DMV website. I grit my teeth and log in.
3. It tells me my password has expired and I need to update it because no one there has read the NIST guidelines. I snarl and update it.
4. I get an error message that the system is temporarily unavailable or something and my password can't be updated, so I can't log in, so I can't refresh my ID, so I can't use the app at all.
At this point I only keep testing it out of sheer bullheadedness and a high pain tolerance.
Why so many government services in the US have such an obsession with scheduled periodic password resets, which the government's own standards body recommends against, is baffling.
I have no idea. OK, I lied. I have some idea. At a previous job I had a meeting with an enterprise customer who was auditing our security controls. Part of the conversation went a lot like this:
Them: How often do you require your employees to change their passwords?
Me: We don't.
Them: Hehe, you'll have to start doing that!
Me: We comply with NIST 800-63B section 5.1.1.2 that says not to do that unless you suspect a password's been compromised.
Them: Uh, what? Can you send me a link?
Me: You bet!
My boss, to me in Slack: OMFG did that really just happen?
Yes, I did have (and do have) that exact citation memorized because it came up often enough that it was handy to bust that out. "Do you rotate..." "NIST!" "...once every 90..." "SP 800-63B!" "...days?" "5 dot 1 dot 1 dot 2!"
On the other hand, I’m glad that this is not being totally gatekept by Apple, even if that comes at the expense of personal convenience in this case.
Also, for other HN readers from Hawai'i, check out the first ever Honolulu Tech Week happening next month: https://www.honolulutechweek.com/
-- 0: https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2021/09/apple-announces-first...
For Apple it all contributes to selling hardware. For google, they make money from phone manufacturers installing the google suite by default (afaik), usage of Google, and data collected.
Right now when I need to carry my ID I still just end up carrying my wallet. The wallet full of cards not tied to Google Wallet. When I buy things with the Google Wallet tap to pay I imagine they're getting some amount of metadata about that transaction.
Also, its yet another feature for Google to have over Apple, or vice-versa. If one side gets it, the other will probably want to match the feature.
I'm being hyperbolic, but I worry _not by much_.
I still think too many people suffer from the "Google, Apple, etc" want to do this because they are altruistic.
The only digital ID, wallet, etc I would want to use would be open source and non proprietary. Someone more intelligent than I could describe it more technically but I'm talking about a digital wallet that's the equivalent of SMS or ethernet. Like a technical standard, not a corporate product.
> Transmission of identity data to the identity reader follows the ISO/IEC 18013-5 standard, which provides for multiple security mechanisms available that are able to detect, deter and mitigate security risks. These consist of identity data integrity and antiforgery, device binding, informed consent, and user data confidentiality over radio links.
Wish granted.
[0]https://support.apple.com/guide/security/ids-in-apple-wallet...
Of course there's no chance I would stop carrying my license anytime soon. Maybe in 20 years everything will be ready for that to happen.
I'm unlikely to stop carrying a wallet anytime soon. It's a welcome addition to have an extra form of ID with me in case my wallet was lost or stolen though.
I don't believe Google has the pricing power to demand a cut of payments (yet), but they need to offer this to keep up with Apple.
It's pretty hard for your every day user to get a new phone number at the moment. Dedicated spammers can still get around it though.
But imagine requiring every user to provide their government issued ID on sign up! You instantly know they're a real person, their age, their gender, their demographics!
Oh yeah, and it makes banning / unpersoning people really easy too. The government can distribute a list of "wanted individuals", and they won't be able to use online services!
https://www.macrumors.com/2021/11/15/apple-strict-terms-on-u...
i suppose you could in theory imagine a future where apps “require” you to supply this to access some service online? is that the fear?
Just FYI some financial apps already require you to take a picture with your drivers license and upload it as part of KYC and other requirements. Having an official way to validate this seems better than entrusting that data with private companies, no?
(i’m putting on my black mirror hat so to speak)
With digital id, presentation can be as simple as a green light.
Californians can now add their mobile driver's license to Google Wallet
I'm sure some states without REAL ID already make it hard to get a license. That wasn't my experience though. Missouri and Nebraska were more like, "oh, you've got a letter from your neighbor vouching that you're really Rusty Shackleford? Here you go, Mr. Shackleford!"
I think states and the feds have a legitimate non-nefarious interest in proving a person's identity under the appropriate circumstances.
The letter from your neighbor is surprisingly reliable. Certainly more reliable that a record of birth from Texas.
Birth certificates in general are pretty awful. IIRC there are like 12,000 known entities that issue them. Big states have required central registration for decades. For example, in New York the local municipality issues the birth certificate, but files a copy with the NYS (or NYC) Department of Health. Some smaller states left it to the town clerk in some tiny village. (Or did until relatively recently)
There are many many corner cases with these sorts of records. Normie middle class people born in the US with two parents have very neat chains of custody of their records. There are millions who have very messy backgrounds or who don’t have their DOB or name officially recorded at all.
Thats why voter ID laws are awful. You don’t have a fundamental right to an ID or obligation to have one, but you do have a right to vote. Putting friction in front of that is a means to disenfranchise people, it’s a form of poll tax.
I totally agree about voter ID laws. I'm sympathetic to at least the claimed reasons for wanting them, but in practice there's statistically insignificant amounts of provably invalid voting. It's not worth disenfranchising millions of legitimate voters to stop the handful of frauds.
The reactionaries are worried about the mark of the beast nonsense. When they cared about civil liberties beyond firearms, that would come up too. The left wingers are worried about disenfranchising the poor and elderly.
Thats one of the reasons why the ID landscape is and has been so crazy - there was opposition to central birth records 100 years ago.
Texas isn’t alone - in point it out because a few years ago a few thousand people, including serving military officers, were effectively stripped of citizenship. They were likely born in Mexico and issued a birth certificate on a fraudulent basis as an infant.
I mean, if your position is that state IDs shouldn't really mean much, that's fine. But say that. But without REAL ID we'd require at least passport cards for air travel and a lot of other federal-related purposes. Which is fine I guess but probably a more expensive and heavyweight process than it needs to be.
I don't know if the immigration status checks are tracked, but the social security number checks are, as part of the check is to verify no cross-state usage of the same number for different identities.
You realize that the 9/11 hijackers (the event that kicked off this stuff) were traveling with valid identification.
The Feds are trying to mandate it, hence the push.
The issue with it is that many people, especially the elderly, poor people, and kids in complex non-custodial families have a hard time getting their physical social security card. Replacement of that document is a major pain in the ass.
It’s a big waste of money, tied to even bigger wastes of money like voter id.