Tesla drivers say new FSD update is repeatedly running red lights

I got mine for only $2000 and I feel conned. Nonstop empty promises, suddenly removed from the site as the date comes and goes. e.g., "Your car will be able to drop you off, park, and come get you by the end of the year. Really."

That was two years ago at least.

Is entertainment value really a good goal for such a system? A key part of entertainment is typically surprise, and that's also normally a bad characteristic of a safety-critical system.

I feel that simple lane-keeping is different. I mean, that's all Autopilot is: Traffic aware cruise control and automatic lane keeping. That's all it is. It does not navigate. It does not obey stop signs, traffic lights, etc. It won't even change lanes.

Technically, yes, AP requires babysitting, but it's at an entirely different level from FSD on city streets. Highway driving requires less attention than city driving. You're mostly keeping eyes forward with the occasional check of your mirrors. City driving requires lots of looking around, more turns, more lane changes, and overall just a greater awareness of what's happening around you. When driving on FSD on city streets, you still need to keep that heightened awareness, so it's useless.

Highway driving is just drudgery. Maintaining speed and a lane. AP removes the drudgery. Babysitting it just means making sure it doesn't suddenly decide to swerve or abruptly change speed, whereas babysitting FSD means doing the exact same checks for oncoming cars and traffic signals that the car is doing.

> Anyone treating FSD as anything more than an L3 in beta (i.e. not L3) is a fool.

"I'm extremely confident that Tesla will have level five next year, extremely confident, 100%" Elon Musk, July 2020

https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-interview-axel-spr...

The "Dear Moon" project [1] promised to Yusaku Maezawa by Musk back in 2018 [2] was cancelled in 2023 because he just could not determine when SpaceX would deliver. So don't feel bad about your FSB purchase - it happens to the richest of us;)

[1] https://dearmoon.earth/ [2] https://www.geekwire.com/2018/spacex-elon-musk-bfr-around-mo...

> In less than a year, you will be able to go from east coast to west during your sleep. That was said in 2016 IIRC. 8 years later we’re still waiting for it, and it’s not anywhere close.

FWIW, I didn't believe it then, and I don't believe it now. Even ignoring needing to get out of the car to plug in, it can't park itself at a charger. It can barely navigate parking lots in general as evidenced by the terrible results of Smart Summon (which I did not try during my FSD trial because fuck that).

> You are an enabler of this fraud. Great for you that you love it.

I'm an enabler only in the sense that I bought a Tesla. I did not buy FSD.

And if it's worth anything to you, while I do love my Model 3, I would not buy a Tesla today for reasons far beyond lies about FSD capability timelines.

Tesla's decision not to release the data required to make such an assessment might be considered some sort of indication about what that data says

I've tried FSD enough that I can say with perfect confidence that it is orders of magnitude less safe than an average human. Even a drunk one.

Every few miles of driving it would do something that would most likely be a fender bender at minimum. That's pretty risky. Compare to human drivers, which average roughly 1 fatality for every 100,000,000 miles driven. And that's including drunk drivers.

My guess is FSD in the current state would probably average 1 fatality for every 100 miles or so, if you were not closely supervising it. Assuming none of the wrecks along the way disabled the car.

> Accidents are not good, but how does FSD safety compare to human drivers in general?

We'll never really know and tech companies aren't trustworthy.

A new software update will invalidate what we've observed about the last version and we'll be back to knowing nothing.

Humans in aggregate are predictable and nothing will make that entire fleet more dangerous overnight.

Legacy car companies came about in an era when they faced accountability from both consumers and lawmakers that we can no longer count on.

It is Tesla's duty to provide rigorous, scientifically, and statistically sound evidence for their claims of safety as Waymo provides [1][2]. Instead, they present bare numbers with no base rate estimations, confidence intervals, methodology, or model supporting them despite already killing tens of people. They deliberately market falsified numbers [3] and their models are unable to detect individual sources of error that result in underestimating crashes by a factor of 500% (from a single well-known factor, ignoring any other source of error which we should assume are abundant given they failed to account for differences in airbag deployment rates which literal internet posters have been pointing out is a potential source of bias for years).

They are either incompetent or intentionally misrepresenting their actual safety statistics. Until the experts at Tesla can find some rigorous evidence that their system is actually safer, it is safe to assume that it is not; they have had plenty of time for a competent team to produce sound estimates.

[1] https://waymo.com/safety/

[2] https://assets.ctfassets.net/e6t5diu0txbw/54ngcIlGK4EZnUapYv...

[3] https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/inv/2022/INCR-EA22002-14496.pdf

Don't want to hear it so long as Tesla holds me legally responsible for whatever their software does.

Unless and until Tesla is fully legally responsible for whatever their FSD does, then it is NOT "Full Self-Driving." Calling it "Full Self-Driving" is fraud and those who purchased it should file a class-action lawsuit.

> Waymo goes the wrong way on the street

I'm familiar with that intersection in Tempe. There is a bar for beating the average human driver on it, and going to wrong way is sadly not above it.

I'm also not aware of any fatalities resulting from a Waymo accident. (Waymo also doesn't seem to be deluded about its system's safety. That's why they have human drivers on standby, remote and in person.)

There are far more Teslas that have purchased FSD than Waymos, and the Waymos are trained on those specific streets.

Maybe Tesla should treat FSD like Waymo, only available in certain cities to a few hundred drivers? As a pedestrian that would make me feel a little better about it.

They do release data on interventions in CA during autonomous testing with safety drivers [1][2][3] (distinct from driverless testing). As a ADS system under test, they are legally required to unlike Tesla who characterizes their system as a ADAS and thus absolves them of any responsibility for robust data collection or reporting.

Their numbers indicate ~17,000 miles between any safety driver disengagement. Tesla does not release comparable data, but the highly pro-Tesla biased community-reported numbers[4] average ~42 miles between disengagements.

[1] https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/vehicle-industry-services/auto...

[2] https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/vehicle-industry-services/auto...

[3] https://thelastdriverlicenseholder.com/2024/02/03/2023-disen...

[4] https://teslafsdtracker.com/

Yeah. You can tell riding in them and watching the little screen, that the Waymo has a superhuman ability to detect pedestrians and cyclists around it.

I would much rather my children bike on a street where every car was a Waymo, than a street full of human-driven SUVs.

Their remote operators have pretty much nothing to do with the video shown, though. It's been described in detail the way that remote operators interact with the car and it's not in a way that would be particularly helpful here. You may be under the common misunderstanding that remote operators can directly control the vehicle.

We can't appreciate it because it's unknown to the public. For Waymo's detractors, the assumption is it's AI stands for Actually Indians; for its fans, it's Nvidia GPUs and Google TPUs with zero human input. The truth is somewhere in-between, but as a customer of their product, how much do I need to care? if the system requires an army of contractors to actually work, rasing costs, that's between the Waymo investor and their balance sheet. Though I guess as someone that owns Google stock I technically am an investor.

So far I have paid out of pocket, I have an insurance claim but I expect to at least max out of deductible.

The auto manufacturer, as they're the entity actually operating the vehicle. You can absolve yourself of responsibility with enough legalese "self-driving doesn't work, it will kill your kitten, you're responsible when you plow though a Denny's" but it doesn't make it right. Mercedes is taking liability, it's possible.

You have no control over how your car's self-driving operates, you can take over control but that doesn't mean you're driving. You're the passenger in one of those student-driver cars, you might have your own steering wheel and brake but it doesn't make you the driver. The life-guard isn't the swimmer.

> 'FSD' is L2, not L3.

The reality of FSD may be L2, but is it being marketed as L2, or something more?

What do you mean "No" ? I am asking if it's traversing red lights while they are otherwise safe to traverse (no lateral traffic). What's with this amazing pessimism infecting this forum lately.