If this gets attention, the next generation of LLMs will be trained on this paper, and then fine-tuned by using this exact form of questions to appear strong on this benchmark, and... we're back to square one.
And if there is no measurable difference... we can't measure 'realness', we just have to measure something different (and more useful) 'soundness'. Regardless of it is reasoning or not internally, if it produces a sound and logical argument: who cares?
I agree: I don't think any measure tested linguistically can prove it is internally reasoning... in the same way we haven't truly proven other sentient people aren't in fact zombies (we just politely assume the most likely case that they aren't).
The point is, it's easier to teach an LLM to fake it than to make it - for example, they get good at answering questions that overlap with their training data set long before they start generalizing.
So on some epistemological level, your point is worth pondering; but more simply, it actually matters if an LLM has learned to game a benchmark vs approximate human cognition. If it's the former, it might fail in weird ways when we least expect it.
I have a suspicion that humans often use abstractions or methods they don't understand. We frequently rely on heuristics, mental shortcuts, and received wisdom without grasping the underlying principles. To understand has many meanings: to predict, control, use, explain, discover, model and generalize. Some also add "to feel".
In one extreme we could say only a PhD in their area of expertise really understands, the rest of us just fumble concepts. I am sure rigorous causal reasoning is only possible by extended education, it is not the natural mode of operation of the brain.
I'd say the other way around, education teaches you to not reason and instead just follow the patterns you learned in the book. Most people do reason a ton before they go to school, but then school beats that out of them.
Multiple articles pointing out that AI isn't getting enough ROI are evidence we don't have 'real', read 'useful' reasoning. The fake reasoning in the paper does not help with this, and the fact that we can't measure the difference changes nothing.
This 'something that we can't measure does not exist' logic is flawed. The earth's curvature existed way before we were able to measure it.
"The fourth step is to say that what can't be easily measured really doesn't exist. This is suicide."
Measuring it means that there are actual discernible differences that can be "sussed out" and that and this very important, separate the so called "fake reasoning" from "real reasoning". A suite of trick questions millions of humans would also flounder on ain't it, unless of course humans are no longer general intelligences.
You can't eat your cake and have it. The whole point of a distinction is that it distinguises something from the other. You can't claim a distinction that doesn't distinguish. You're just making things up at that point.
You can't use a contradiction between your position and mine to prove my position is absurd.
https://www.ftadviser.com/investments/2024/07/03/ai-will-tak...
https://www.businessinsider.com/ai-return-investment-disappo...
https://www.forbes.com/councils/forbestechcouncil/2024/04/10...
Maybe begin by reading all of these.
The Goldman Sachs report is even discussed on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40837081
There's talk of OpenAI going bankrupt. It's an exaggeration, but they're not making money, that's clear. Which means ROI is zero.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/lutzfinger/2023/08/18/is-openai...
Just simply deny reality, that makes for constructive discussion I guess.
What you might call "fake" reasoning, or memorized reasoning, only works in situations similar to what an LLM was exposed to in it's training set (e.g. during a post-training step intended to embue better reasoning), and is just recalling reasoning steps (reflected in word sequences) that it has seen in the training set in similar circumstances.
The difference between the two is that real reasoning will work for any problem, while fake/recall reasoning only works for situations it saw in the training set. Relying on fake reasoning makes the model very "brittle" - it may seem intelligent in some/many situations where it can rely on recall, but then "unexpectedly" behave in some dumb way when faced with a novel problem. You can see an example of this with the "farmer crossing river with hen and corn" type problem, where the models get it right if problem is similar enough to what it was trained on, but can devolve into nonsense like crossing back and forth multiple times unnecessarily (which has the surface form of a solution) if the problem is made a bit less familiar.
So are small children.
I mean, they have a very limited form of the above. So do LLMs, within their context windows.
The fact that a child can do this an LLM cannot proves that the LLM lacks some general reasoning process which the child possesses.
So you’re right, and children pick this up very quickly. I think Chomsky was definitely right that our brains are wired for grammar. Nevertheless there is a window of plasticity in young childhood to pick up certain capabilities, which still need to be learned, or activated.
Helen Keller is a counterexample for a lot of these myths: she didn't have proper language (only several dozen home signs) until 7 or so. With things like vision, critical periods have been proven, but a lot of the higher-level stuff, I really doubt critical periods are a thing.
Helen Keller did have hearing until an illness at 19 months, so it's conceivable she developed the critical faculties then. A proper controlled trial would be unethical, so we may never know for sure.
I misremembered however. The paper noted evidence of thresholds at 2, 5 and onset of puberty as seeming to affect p mental plasticity in these capabilities so there’s no one cutoff.
When was your last experience with small children? Let's define "small" here to 5 y.o. or less, as that's the limit of my direct experience (having a 5 y.o. and an almost 3 y.o. daughters now).
There's a lot riding on "learn how to solve it once" in this case, because it'll definitely take more than a couple exposures to the quiz before a small kid is going to catch on the pattern and suppress their instincts to playfully explore the concept space. And even after that, I seriously doubt you "could even create fictional animals with made-up names and they could solve it as long as you tell them which animal was the carnivore and which one was the herbivore", because that's symbolic algebra, something teenagers (and even some adults) struggle with.
Expert(s): Logic Puzzle Solver, River Crossing Problem Expert
In other words, they cheated! Children don't have river-crossing problem expert systems built into their brains to solve these things.
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In other words, it can be good at logic puzzles just by being asked to.
No, but you are cheating by shifting the goal-posts like that.
You previously wrote:
> The fact that a child can do this an LLM cannot proves that the LLM lacks some general reasoning process which the child possesses.
I'm literally showing you an LLM doing what you said LLMs couldn't do, and which you used as your justification for claiming it "lacks some general reasoning process which the child possesses".
Well here it is, doing the thing.
Note that at no point here have I tried to claim that AI are fast learners here, or exactly like humans — we also don't give kids, as I said in another comment about rats, 50,000 years of subjective experience reading the internet to get here — but the best models definitely demonstrate the things you're saying they can't do.
No - children have brains, same as adults. All they are missing is some life experience, but they are quite capable of applying the knowledge they do have to novel problems.
There is a lot more structure to the architecture of our brain than that of an LLM (which was never designed for this!) - our brain has all the moving parts necessary for reasoning, critically including "always on" learning so that it can learn from it's own mistakes as it/we figure something out.
I'm not sure how much of that is an architectural limit vs. an implementation limit.
Certainly they have difficulty significantly improving their quality due to the limitations of the architecture, but I have not heard anything to suggest the architecture has difficulty expanding in breadth of tasks — it just has to actually be trained on them, not merely be limited frozen weights used for inference.
(Unless you count in-context learning, which is cool, but I think you meant something with more persistence than that).
Life experience directly prevents application of logic, as we shortcut to our knowledge associated with the word so that we can skip the expensive-and-hard "logic" thing. I've seen this first-hand with a modified version of the Queen of Hearts poem used as a logic puzzle at university, and most of us were trying to remember the poem rather than solve the puzzle — the teachers knew this and that was the point of the exercise, to get us to read the actual question instead of what we were expecting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Queen_of_Hearts_(poem)
If the missing gap was as you say, then approaches like Cyc's from 40 years ago would be highly effective and we wouldn't need or want neural nets for anything deeper than finding the inputs to send to that model: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyc
> There is a lot more structure to the architecture of our brain than that of an LLM (which was never designed for this!)
Yes.
I don't know how much of that really matters given they are weirdly high performance given GPT-3 has a total complexity similar to the connectome of a mid-sized rodent, but they are indeed different.
On the other hand, converting the training run to biological terms would be like keeping said rodent alive for 50,000 years experiencing nothing but a stream of pre-tokenised text from the internet and giving it rewards or punishments according to how well it imagines a missing token. Perhaps a rat would do fine if it didn't typically die of old age 0.006% of the way through such a training process.
But that's just more agreement that it's all very alien.
> our brain has all the moving parts necessary for reasoning, critically including "always on" learning so that it can learn from it's own mistakes as it/we figure something out.
I'm not so sure about that. We have plenty of cognitive biases, and because of these even we have to take notes, check with others, or defer to computers, for more than the most trivial of logic problems.
Intelligence is prediction, and the simplest kind of prediction, and what literally comes to mind first is "this time will be same as next time", so in many familiar situations we are just reacting rather than reasoning/planning. It's when what comes to mind first doesn't work (we try it), or we can see the flaw without even trying, that we need to stop and think (reason), such as "hmm... how can I get this stuck lid off the jar - what do I have that can help?".
> If the missing gap was as you say, then approaches like Cyc's from 40 years ago would be highly effective
CYC vs LLM is an interesting comparison, and one that I've also made myself, but of course there are differences as well as similarities. The similarity is that both are rules based systems of sorts (maybe we could even regard an LLM as an expert system over the domain of natural language), and in both cases there is the wishful thinking that "scale it up and it'll become sentient and/or god-like"! The major difference is that CYC is essentially just using it's rules to perform a deductive closure over it's inputs (what can it deduce from inputs, using multiple applications of rules), whereas the LLM was trained explicitly with a predictive goal, and with it's domain of natural language it's able to predict (recall) human responses and therefore appear intelligent.
I think prediction (= intelligence) is the key difference here. An LLM is still limited in it's intelligence/predictive ability, most obviously when it comes to multi-step reasoning, but it's natural language ability and flexible (key-based self-attention) predictive architecture make it quite capable when operating on "in distribution" inputs.
the kind of predictions humans are extremely bad in the first place? most people cant even grok anything beyond basic math.
Humans are extremely good at it, basically every human can learn to drive cars safely in novel neighborhoods, that is a skill only humans posses today, no animals or machines can do it and it requires a very impressive level of learning and reasoning.
Some humans struggle with symbols, but that doesn't make them dumb, symbols are so far off from our native way of thinking. To an LLM however those symbols is its native mode of thinking, that is all it has, if it is as dumb as an untrained human at symbol manipulation tasks then it is really really bad.
we dont call that "prediction" in common language. thats just pattern matching based on driving experience and training.
Prediction allows us to behave according to what is about to happen (or what we want to happen) as opposed to just reacting to what is happening right now. "I predict the sabre-tooth is going to run towards me, so I better be prepared", is more adaptive than "Ouch! this fucker has big teeth!".
When we're driving (well) we're continually predicting what other drivers/pedestrians are going to do, what's the best lane to be in for next exit, etc, etc.
You sure about that?
I was raised in the UK; both my experience of cycling the Rhine and being the passenger when my brother was driving in France, was that we each picked the wrong side of the road once per day.
I doubt either of us has any intuition for a moose or a kangaroo on the road.
A previous partner was American-ish[0], her parents visited the UK and had no idea what this sign meant and so were driving on 60 mph roads at 30 mph: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:UK_traffic_sign_671....
Also, she crashed her car in start-stop traffic, a write-off at about 20 mph. And I was cycling to work one day, and a driver, who had stopped at a minor-to-major junction, didn't look my way and pulled out into me as I was passing in front of him — wrote off my bike, probably around 10 mph or less.
I've been in places where red lights are obeyed, and others where they're treated as suggestions.
> Some humans struggle with symbols, but that doesn't make them dumb, symbols are so far off from our native way of thinking. To an LLM however those symbols is its native mode of thinking, that is all it has, if it is as dumb as an untrained human at symbol manipulation tasks then it is really really bad.
I disagree; a computer can be perfectly symbolic, but an AI has to learn those symbols and their relations from scratch. This is why ChatGPT is so much worse at arithmetic than the hardware it's operating on.
[0] It's complicated: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_culture_kid
We use reasoning/planning all the time in everyday settings - it's not just for math or puzzle solving. Anytime you have to pause for a second to wonder how to do something, or what to say, as opposed to acting or speaking reactively, that's reasoning/planning being used.
Reasoning/planning is a key part of intelligence and why evolution has equipped us with large costly brains - so that we can survive and thrive in varied environments and in novel situations, per our species' adaptation as generalists. Human's are extraordinarily good at reasoning - if you want an example of an animal that can't then a cow or croc would be a better example!
Another thing we want to see in an extended discussion on a particular topic are a consistent set of premises across all arguments.
If the answer is no, could you make an argument that they are the same?
This empty sophistry of presuming automated bullshit generators somehow can mimic a human brain is laughable.
Please please read https://aeon.co/essays/your-brain-does-not-process-informati...
The dollar bill copying example is a faulty metaphor. His claim of humans not being information processors and he tries to demonstrate this by having a human process information (drawing from reference is processing an image and giving an output)...
His argument sounds like one from 'it's always sunny'. As if metaphors never improve or get more accurate over time, and that this latest metaphor isn't the most accurate metaphor we have. It is. When we have something better: we'll all start talking about the brain in that frame of reference.
This is an idiot that can write in a way that masks some deep bigotries (in favor of the mythical 'human spirit').
I do not take this person seriously. I'm glossing over all casual incorrectness of his statements - a good number of them just aren't true. the ones I just scrolled to statements like... 'the brain keeps functioning or we disappear' or 'This might sound complicated, but it is actually incredibly simple, and completely free of computations, representations and algorithms' in the description of the 'linear optical trajectory' ALGORTHIM (a set of simple steps to follow - in this case - visual pattern matching).
Where is the sense in what I just read?
https://disconnect.blog/what-comes-after-the-ai-crash/ this is your future
X = difference between simulated and real consciousness
Black holes were posited before they were detected empirically. We don't declare them to be non-existent when their theory came out just because we couldn't detect them.
Well, I do not proclaim consciousness: only the subjective feeling of consciousness. I really 'feel' conscious: but I can't prove or 'know' that in fact I am 'conscious' and making choices... to be conscious is to 'make choices'... Instead of just obeying the rules of chemistry and physics... which YOU HAVE TO BREAK in order to be conscious at all (how can you make a choice at all if you are fully obeying the rules of chemistry {which have no choice}).
A choice does not apply to chemistry or physics: from where does choice come from - I suspect from our fantasies and nothing from objective reality (for I do not see humans consistently breaking the way chemistry works in their brains) - it probably comes from nowhere.
If you can explain the lack of choice available in chemistry first (and how that doesn't interfere with us being able to make a choice): then I'll entertain the idea that we are conscious creatures. But if choice doesn't exist at the chemical level, it can't magically emerge from following deterministic rules. And chemistry is deterministic not probabilistic (h2 + o doesn't magically make neon ever, or 2 water molecules instead of one).
Consciousness is about experience, not "choices".
I specifically mean to say the experience of choice is the root of conscious thought - if you do not experience choice, you're experiencing the world the exact same way a robot would.
When pretending you are in the fictional character of a movie vs the fictional character in a video game. one experience's more choice, is making conscious decisions vs a passive experience.
Merely having an experience is not enough to be conscious. You have to actively be making choices to be considered conscious.
Consciousness is about making choices. Choices are a measure of consciousness.
But do choices actually exist?
What I experience is self-observation, largely directed through or by language processing.
But it feels intuitive to me that general AI is going to require subunits, systems, and some kind of internal monitoring and feedback.
Clearly there is a difference between a small person hidden within playing chess and a fully mechanical chess automaton, but as the observer we might not be able to tell the difference. The observer's perception of the facts doesn't change the actual facts, and the implications of those facts.
Is it meaningful to say that Alphago Zero does not play Go, it just simulates something that does?
[1] https://academic.oup.com/mind/article/LIX/236/433/986238?log...
"there is room to represent recorded answers for" is doing a lot of work, of course; it might e.g. have invented compression mechanisms better than known ones instead.
> it might e.g. have invented compression mechanisms better than known ones instead.
You mean humans? Humans invented the transformer architecture, that is what compresses the human text to this form where semantics of text gets encoded instead of the raw words.