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Comment by barranger | Hacker News Reader

While I certainly wouldn't call Nokia's position anything but worrisome, I think it might be a little early to start planning the funeral.

One of the benefits Nokia has by going with Windows Phone is the relationship it now has with Microsoft. I'd be very surprised if Nokia's tablet offering isn't front and center in just about every piece of marketing MS does.

The biggest issue that Windows Phone has currently is a lack of third party applications. I really do think that standardizing the platform across Phone/Tablet/PC will help in a big way with this problem (not pushing them to higher numbers than iOS/Android, but much, much closer than they are today).

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For the average non-tech user, is the lack of third party apps really that big of an issue? In all honesty, all they need is Facebook, Twitter, Angry Birds and sudoku, which WP7 has. You're really not at a loss for apps when it comes to the popular 1st tier apps.

The bigger issue, from my personal experience seeing people pick up and use a WP7 device, is that it's awkward to use compared to the grid of icons in iOS and Android. They're utterly confused and have no idea how to even begin. Metro, as executed by MS, is simply not intuitive. The starkness of the white on black text is cold and unfriendly. Interaction paradigms they learned from iOS and Android are slightly different in WP7, which results in frustration around every corner. The pure icon based menus make it a guessing game on which icon does what. From my personal experience, regular people have a much easier time switching between Android and iOS. WP is just too different.

I've found for the average non-tech user the only app they seem to really care about is the one that their friends are currently gushing about.

as an example (yes I read the anecdote article :) ) I spent the weekend with extended family who were going on and on about how great Instagram was and how they couldn't understand why anybody would even think about a phone that didn't have it. I'm sure when I see them again in 6 weeks or so, the argument will be the same, with only the specific app that changes.

While MS will have whatever "the" app is at a current moment from time to time, due to it's marketshare, iOS will almost always have it.

Android: grid of icons, which you can pick some that you use most often and pin them to the first screen you see.

WP7: list of icons with names, which you can pick some that you use most often and pin them to the first screen you see, except these icons then change sometimes to display more information such as weather forecast, Facebook updates, etc.

This is too different how? The icons on the menus are pretty clearly designed to show you what they do. If you're still confused, there's a [...] in the corner which shows text. All of this is completely discoverable, explained in the manual, and should be showcased by the salesman who is trying to help you decide (rather than trying to sell you his favorite phone).

Too different how?

I just switched to a WP (Titan II) last week. It may be new phone smell but I really like it. I wasn't a heavy app user though.

In showing the phone to my family/friends the biggest confusion I have found was the People pane. They thought in terms of the Facebook app and the Twitter app. Once I explained that those apps are all 'in' the people pane and linked to their phone profile things went smoothly. Overall I felt they really liked the look of the phone.

Personally I like the social media integration and the tile interface look. Rather than a feeling of reaching out to Twitter or Facebook those things are delivered to me. I don't have Joe on Facebook and Joe on Twitter, etc. I just have Joe and all his updates are delivered and grouped together in a nice way.

I was sad to see WebOS die because of the way it handled people like they were people, instead of accounts on services. I'm glad Windows Phone picked up that torch, even though I wish WebOS had succeeded. The only time I go into the Facebook app on my phone is to see who "liked" my status (no idea why the baked-in app doesn't show this) if it's a rare moment when I really feel the need to know this information.

Seamless conversations between text and IM is another feature picked up from WebOS that I feel is invaluable once you start using it.

On the other hand, Android that is put on devices by (some of the) manufacturers is a big piece of shit. And they don't intend to update it either. Honestly, I would rather have a phone with confusing UI than one that is slow and keeps crashing.

That being said, I own a phone I have to root in order to get a decent system only because of the app base. Even average non-tech user browses sites and stumbles upon mobile apps every day. There is always an iPhone app, most of the time Android one and very very occasionally a Windows Phone version.

So windows seems to be an obscure choice in mobile market nowadays. Even though it's probably superior to Android.

"For the average non-tech user, is the lack of third party apps really that big of an issue?"

Yes - http://paidcontent.org/2010/09/09/419-average-number-of-apps...

That was written almost 2 years ago when it was thought to have mattered. I have about 7 apps installed on my phone, 2 of which are angry birds and angry birds space. I have the kindle app, facebook, and a weather app which sucks.

Any really strong selling app for iPhone, will make it to Andriod which will make it to Windows.

The number of apps in your market is not really important when you have the web.

[ADDED] This may not be as true for Apple users because of the smaller screen size and slower web. For me, I have the LTE Galaxy so I just go right to the web. It is almost as good as my laptop due to the larger screen and LTE. I would guess when the new iPhone comes out, apps will probably become even less important.

I hate it when people say 'just use the web'. Just because you have a great data connection, doesn't mean everyone does. I have a terrible[1] data connection where I live. I have quite a few apps which I need to work with only intermittent connectivity to fulfil their main purpose: Mail, Theodolite (Photos with telemetry), Outdoors GB(Offline maps), Numbers(Spreadsheets), Sketches, Collins French<->English, Billings (Time charge app), Dropbox (Files favourited for offline access), Fill That Hole... and more I can't be bothered to list. If these required a data connection to launch them they would be useless to me and therefore it would be pointless to own a smartphone. I know there are probably web equivalents with offline storage for one or two of these (although how do you know if a web app is really offline capable?) but its unrealistic at this point in time to say that the web can replace native apps feature for feature for most users especially with the current local database size limits for web apps.

The whole assumption of a constant connection thing really gets on my nerves and there are plenty of native apps which are hobbled by it. There's nothing more frustrating than launching a native app which logically should be self contained only to have it sit there with the UI blocking for ages while it tries to access something on a crap data connection. For example, I truly hate the CalMac ferry app because it should just cache the timetable data in a CoreData (or a web app with offline database would work well too), its probably <100k of timetable data and it yet it tries to redownload a PDF for my ferry seemingly every time I try to access it......Grrrrrrr (timetable stashed in dropbox instead).

[1]About 1-3 bars of 2G signal. No 3G signal within 100 miles in every direction from where I'm sitting.

Note, I didn't say just use the web.

I told you what I do which is what everyone else will do. I don't need to tell them, it will happen on its on.

The vast majority of people who can afford smart phones live in areas where there is consistent internet.

In heavily populated areas the trend toward improving internet connectivity will continue. Eventually the productivity gains from creating apps will only be useful in specific situations.

Areas now that are still hard to use internet are improving in most cities. Places like metros, basements, etc will all have internet some day.

If you are stuck somewhere very rural, you will be increasingly fustrated.

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