The Decline of Etiquette and the Rise of 'Boundaries' (2022) | Hacker News Reader

The Decline of Etiquette and the Rise of 'Boundaries' (2022)

theatlantic.com

17 pointsyamrzou12 comments

> “a kind of back and forth, pushing the boundaries to figure out where the lines sit”

I noticed the same change related to Parenting Etiquette.

I came from a not-so-strict family in the 80s and 90s, and I recall as a kid several small things, such as being on time for dinner, not screaming in the supermarket, never touching anything in other people's houses, asking permission for almost everything, and so on. And this was more or less the unwritten law in my demographic.

At a very young age, it was almost like we knew that we could or not, and in the latter case, we could just ask an adult.

Fast forward: being a parent myself, I found myself struggling a lot with other parents who did not stimulate some kind of etiquette and how some kids are being softly excluded or slightly ostracized without knowing it.

One example is aggressiveness and hitting other kids. I participate in a circle of parents (approximately . 5 families, 13 kids, more or less in the same age). One of those kids started to be more aggressive, even with the toddlers and most of the parents did not want to say anything to the kid and for his parents. One week later, we went to another gathering and my partner mentioned that one of the families were not invited due to its kid.

Bizarre that this is framed as a decline of rather than a change to etiquette.

  etiquette, noun: rules governing socially acceptable behavior.

Does anyone really think that there is a recent decline in rules governing socially acceptable behavior? I'm finding the rules to be harder for me to predict than the ones I grew up with, but not at all scarce.

Well, yes. The very subtitle of the article describes it:

> For centuries, strict social norms dictated what people could politely talk about. Now we have to figure it out for ourselves.

Of course, this goes beyond just talking.

> Does anyone really think that there is a recent decline in rules governing socially acceptable behavior?

Absolutely there is. The article gives plenty of examples of this. I've lost count of commentators advocating for de-tabooizing more and more issues or topics and taboos are really what etiquette is about. Hyper-individualism has etiquette replaced with individual boundaries.

This article talks as if the author is mystified by the concept of boundaries or as if this is a mirky concept. However, I think this has been fairly well layed out by writers on the topic of healthy psychological development. Those who overshare of are walled off have not developed boundaries according to many common theories around personal development. Thinking that one must divulge everything compulsively shows a lack of individuation and self reliance, while being overly walled off or detached is usually a poor coping strategy related to not trusting others. Finding a balance may not be so perilous with a few roleplays and rules of thumb.

https://archive.is/Q18ns

Oversharing at the family dinner is something I didn't encounter yet. In contrast having a mobile phone always available oftentimes leads to no conversation at all.

My wife and me are very strict with not touching our phone at during meals with our kids. But the grandparents are the total opposite. They use their phones during meals all the time, killing most conversations with their absence.

I think that the coming generation will be even more mindful in their usage of a phone during real life conversations. At least I hope so.

Having to figure things out is quite frustrating. Mainly around phone etiquettes.

But confronting every person about, what is effectively personal preference about phone use in meetups, is quite annoying

A simple rule of thumb is that people should mind their own business, i.e. if it doesn't affect you / your day, leave people alone. If someone chooses to browse their phone during a meetup (which I presume you refer to), that's their loss; while it's rude that someone doesn't seem to pay attention to a speaker, it doesn't affect the speaker or the rest of the audience unless they choose for themselves to make a problem of it.

I could also be answering a phone call. I think browsing your phone is mostly considered rude by people, but answering a call would be more grey area. Depending on the nature of the meet up and the perceived urgency of the call (which would be hard to estimate for the rest of the people present).

At the core of etiquette lies consideration for others. Looking at your phone constantly while in a meeting tells everyone else that you think the meeting wastes your time, or that you can't pay attention. If you don't want to participate don't go to the meeting. If you must take calls during a meeting (with the ringer off I would hope) you excuse yourself so you don't disrupt the meeting and everyone else.

You don't have to know anyone's specific boundaries to show consideration. You treat people they way you would like them to treat you. You wouldn't appreciate people browsing their phones while you presented at a meeting. You wouldn't appreciate phones ringing and people taking calls while you spoke or wanted to listen. Basic Golden Rule stuff.

If some people are offended by phone use, and no people are offended by non-phone use, then I'd have thought the default (assuming you don't want to check or to offend) would simply be non-phone use.

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