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Comment by dclowd9901 | Hacker News Reader

I think about this a lot. I think my dad was more goal oriented and I’m more process oriented. I see every day spent working toward a goal as a valuable step toward it, while I think he tried to always shorten the path to reach his goals, and ended up not ever achieving them because of it.

As an example, I do car restoration as a hobby. It’s a big, big task to basically dismantle a car, fix body issues, rebuild the engine and transmission, clean up all the parts, and put it back together. Looking at the entire task outside of it, seems almost impossible to do, but I almost never think about the end of the work. I just think about the next thing I need to do.

I think marathon runners do something similar, or so I’ve heard anecdotally.

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“...it's like this. Sometimes, when you've a very long street ahead of you, you think how terribly long it is and feel sure you'll never get it swept. And then you start to hurry. You work faster and faster and every time you look up there seems to be just as much left to sweep as before, and you try even harder, and you panic, and in the end you're out of breath and have to stop--and still the street stretches away in front of you. That's not the way to do it.

You must never think of the whole street at once, understand? You must only concentrate on the next step, the next breath, the next stroke of the broom, and the next, and the next. Nothing else.

That way you enjoy your work, which is important, because then you make a good job of it. And that's how it ought to be.

And all at once, before you know it, you find you've swept the whole street clean, bit by bit. what's more, you aren't out of breath. That's important, too...” ― Michael Ende, Momo

I think of it as scaling a mountain. When you're at the base the mountain looks imposing and out of reach. As you begin the climb it's hard work and you don't know your way around and feel lost, and every time you look up the mountain remains as imposing as before. But then you begin to make progress, and the mountain begins to seem smaller. Now you can finish the climb because it doesn't seem like that much more work -- you've done the truly hard part, which was: getting started.

Admittedly when I'm at the base I take my time getting started. But once I'm started, I can power through.

Hand excavating a couple tens of feet of 5 ft deep trenches will quickly teach you this lesson.

I love that book. Is full of lessons that seam aimed to kids but are even more important for adults to be remembered from time to time.

As a counter point, I've also seen plenty people too focused on doing every little step up to some imagined standards that they never get to complete anything — basically, life intervenes and they got to leave with nothing really done at all.

I am personally goal motivated: I like achieving and building things (I enjoy the process in as much as I got the better of it :)). When things are complex, I come up with smaller goals that are on the path to getting the big thing done, all the while thinking how these things fit together.

This has made me great at coming up with iterative steps where each step brings value: even if I stop at any one point, I have done something useful.

In your example, I would probably dismantle the car enough to get the engine out and rebuilt and back in, and then go back to it sometime in the future to work on other stuff, all the while keeping a functioning car as I am rebuilding it.

> This has made me great at coming up with iterative steps where each step brings value: even if I stop at any one point, I have done something useful.

This is really just getting caught up on semantics, and what you've described is essentially the same as a 'quest mindset'. The goal vs quest mindsets are basically waterfall vs (lowercase a) agile mindsets. In the former you risk building something you don't want or under-allocate resources to achieving it, in the latter, you've realized that you've misestimated what the final outcome will be or should be, and know that there will be a discovery process alongside development.

> basically, life intervenes and they got to leave with nothing really done at all.

And perhaps there is no sense in that journey being 'complete' as there's always some way to improve things. But I think the caution here on the 'quest' mindset, is to still have something functional early on – "Release early, and release often" as it were. But this caution also holds for the 'goal' mindset, perhaps moreso, as there's a higher risk of misunderstanding what 'complete' looks like, or all the side-'goals' you never anticipated, and becoming dismayed when you've found yourself settling in on a loong quest anyway.

> This is really just getting caught up on semantics, and what you've described is essentially the same as a 'quest mindset'. The goal vs quest mindsets are basically waterfall vs (lowercase a) agile mindsets.

But most people describe the difference as "enjoying the process" vs "enjoying the result". I enjoy the result, I only come up with multiple "results" along the way to an "end goal".

Instead of seeing it as a difference in semantics, this is probably how "goal-oriented" people can learn to achieve big things. As in, everybody can get there, and really, this means to me that you can be agile whether you are goal oriented or process/quest oriented.

There's a lot to unpack here. But firstly, "enjoying the process" and "enjoying the result" aren't really in binary opposition. If one weren't to 'enjoy the process' but only 'enjoy the result' they would be working in desperation to reach the end. If one only 'enjoyed the process' they would never finish anything, because completing would be the end of the joy. Porque no los dos?

I'm certain that most people that 'enjoy the process' also enjoy completing things, and are dismayed when there's a trail of half-finished works cluttering their mental (and physical) space. Similarly, I couldn't imagine someone who doesn't 'enjoy the process' ever embarking on anything that has no external motivation (e.g., a paycheck, prestige, etc.). But if we imagine them to actually be in binary opposition, and I had to pick between a life of 'quiet desperation' and eternal enjoyment, I'd probably opt for the latter. And this is as someone who's spent much of my professional career in anguish at the process and desperate to reach the goal to feel that sweet dopamine hit (and a lot of unfinished personal projects in my wake).

> this is probably how "goal-oriented" people can learn to achieve big things

The implication here – again – is that "process enjoyers" don't achieve big things/don't complete things, and perhaps also that "goal enjoyers" fail to achieve less often, and I'm not sure what that assertion is based on.

Perhaps an alleged 'goal-focused' mind is more willing to indulge in a lot of unpleasant work to reach a goal, but then a 'process enjoyer' can enjoy the work instead and also reach the goal. I would say the latter – 'the pig in shit' – is more likely to reach their goals. But perhaps you are under the belief that the 'process enjoyer' is less likely to do things that most people find unpleasant. Once again, I'm not sure what that belief would be based on, but it could be true.

> But firstly, "enjoying the process" and "enjoying the result" aren't really in binary opposition.

Obviously: I assumed we do not need to be explicit that these are not the only options, but that everyone would be somewhere on a continuum between the two extremes, and even then, not all the time in the same spot either (eg depending on the motivation, circumstances etc).

My argument was a counterpoint to someone claiming how "their dad never completed anything because they were goal oriented compared to them" (paraphrasing) to point out that both can achieve things, but also both fail to achieve things.

So your rethoric seems misplaced: I am arguing none of the things you are implying.

> So your rethoric seems misplaced: I am arguing none of the things you are implying.

I was mostly seizing on this line:

> this is probably how "goal-oriented" people can learn to achieve big things

I made the inference here that you meant process-oriented people are, at least, less likely to achieve big things, and that was my mistake. But it lead me on an interesting train of thought, perhaps even doubling down on my assertion: that actually being process-minded is not only as likely but actually more likely to compel someone to achieve great things.

I imagine most people (not necessarily you) look at a Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos, or an Elon Musk and go, "They must be really goal-driven". But I couldn't imagine them turning up to work everyday and dread the meetings, talking to staff, and actually doing the work. Most people see this as the daily grind, but for people who enjoy showing up and getting to work, they are more likely to achieve great things.

That's of course not to say they don't savor seeing a rocket launch or something, but I bet they don't dwell on it either. They'll be straight back into the process. It's also not to say that those that enjoy only the goal can't achieve great things, but I'd imagine it would be a lot harder to navigate the 'development hell' that often accompanies such pursuits.

> ...being process-minded is not only as likely but actually more likely to compel someone to achieve great things.

This is the point that I was originally disputing :)

And it is where I disagree: I find the "achieving great things" requires breaking things up into smaller pieces (agile, or engineer mindset), and it's orthogonal to your goal vs process character.

Basically, my counter is that just like badly managed[$] goal-oriented people might suffer through a long process to the goal (and thus give up), badly managed process-oriented people might enjoy the ride too much to not care about the end result. A common saying of "work smart, not hard" kinda supports that too.

[$] I am using "managed" here liberally: they could be self-managed, for instance.

What you need to do to achieve both small but especially big things is to be smart and manage yourself well along with having enough motivation to do it.

And the source of motivation is where I think the only difference is: neither goal nor process does warrant one having enough of it, but they are sources of it for different people.

And again, goal-oriented people do not necessarily dread all of the process, it's just that they get most of their motivation from achieving things. And certainly process-oriented people enjoy achieving things, even if they get motivated with the road as well.

> This is the point that I was originally disputing :)

I did suspect we were at odds with each other somehow!

> requires breaking things up into smaller pieces (agile, or engineer mindset), and it's orthogonal to your goal vs process character

Agreed.

> And again, goal-oriented people do not necessarily dread all of the process

I think much of what I'm saying is that achieving 'great' things probably entails a long road. Management style aside, I think loving the process would greatly improve your odds of going the distance without burnout during the inevitable development hell (e.g., tasks that take longer than anticipated, unanticipated tasks, unanticipated hurdles, etc.) of doing something novel or overwhelming in scale – which I think all 'great' things would have one or both of those characters. But I'm happy to agree to disagree here, and I thank you for the insightful discussion.

> I've also seen plenty people too focused on doing every little step up to some imagined standards that they never get to complete anything

This is the true definition of the Yak Shave.

It's not yak shaving. Yak shaving is (possibly) recursive explosion of seemingly unrelated tasks which are required to complete the original task. The comment fits description of a maladaptive perfectionism.

Not at all. Yak shaving is getting caught up in all the surrounding, sometimes supporting tasks, so you never get to the main task.

Yak shaving is spending time finding the ultimate editor, choosing between syntax highlighters and schemes, configuring git, et c., so you never actually get around to write any code. That is different from wrenching the last nanosecond of optimisation from some not particularly central part of the code.

Personally I feel like some things that have clear chunks of work are best goal-oriented like “reading through this book” while nebulous goals require a process-oriented method of thinking.

That said, I don’t think you should really worry about that distinction.

My method of getting things done is a 3 step:

1. Constant checking in on whether I am happy at my progress. If I am, keep doing what I’m doing.

2. If I’m not, try a completely different approach entirely. Abandon the old approach for a week or however long is reasonable.

3. If I fail to improve or I failed to actually put in place the different approach (saying and doing are different things), I need a shock to the system. Moving to a brand new city-kind-of-shock. Throwing away half your belongings-kind-of-shock.

The key is frequently checking if you are happy with progress and realizing that if you are not, you need a change. And you need to be willing to try changes constantly.

Have any of you here considered that you simply need help? More people working alongside you? Being able to form a structure (such as a company or decentralized DAO) with responsibilities?

In my experience, when you are procrastinating, that's your subconscious telling you that you need help. Maybe you don't have the skills, or the time, to undertake the thing. Your developer brain says it'll take 1 hour and it takes 2 days.

https://qbix.com/blog/2016/11/17/properly-valuing-contributi...

You are right on! Teamwork outside of paid work is underrated. So many solo projects/goals/quests stall when a person with a different skill set could've made all the difference and helped bring it to completion. I think in-person community is best for this, although Internet strangers can certainly become friends and do fun projects together.

Marathon runner here. Spot on. A marathon is near impossible if you don’t like running. Inevitable if you like running.

Marathon training is actually the framework around which I do all “quests” now. If you enjoy the process, anything is possible. The key is finding a way to enjoy the process.

I’ve extended it to several areas I didn’t find very fun prior. Language learning and job hunting in particular.

I actually wrote my first blog post on this very subject[1]. Warning, it’s quite verbose and not the best. There’s a TL;DR.

[1] https://emmettmcdow.github.io/posts/how-to-learn-a-foreign-l...

Love this line from your post "The marathon is simply an exhibition of the labor it took to achieve it, it is not the goal in and of itself."

This is the joy of my martial arts path as well.

In my experience, (This is a Mechanical Elves take on it (I studied Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, Danzan Ryu, Small Circle, and my Professor Larry Cary said to me one session:

"The movements I am teaching you awaken dormant brain circuitry. When you do these movements, all the old Masters are with you"

That was the moment it really clicked for me.

Later, Soke Hatsumi was quoted in the infamous "Understand? Good. Play!" book -- my favorite quote:

"I am teaching you to wield a sword, even if you have no arms!"

The reason is that these two statements allowed me to see what the true nature of my Joy of Movement truely was: I was able to see the Principles of Movement flow through me - (we call this The Mode) - and it was that feeling that was being fully present is what I sought and I feel thats the nature of Mastery of any craft.

---

@sebg:

You'd really love this Scientest's interview:

"Things like 'YOU' - that took the Universe Billions of years to generate 'YOU' - you have a lot of Time embedded in you..."

https://youtu.be/6o8OFTrSTpk?t=7832

Fn prphetic. This Scientists entire podcast and more is worth Time.

---

I wrote this Haiku a long while back:

Movement and Measure

All is One, flowing through Time.

Another yourself.

I've run a few marathons. I'm not fast. I haven't done it in a while. But I think I'd like to do it again. You're not wrong, I'm going to quibble a bit because I have a slightly different perspective that might be helpful. First, a little context. For me a marathon is all about training. That first day it might only be 50 steps. A few weeks or months in, I can go a mile or 3. Then it's just awful. Every little weak tendon and muscle is crying out. Walk for a bit then get back to running. After the early bit, I get 3-4 miles into a run, then have to decide, 3-4 miles back home or 6 to just finish the run. I think that's the critical point. am I just going to walk home? That's an option. but I've gone so far. Walk a lot and just finish the damn route. And that's kind of the point. A lot of comments are arguing about semantics, and I get that. But the point is just get through the bullshit however you can. It's ok to kind of hobble along. Stop by the bar and have a beer or three and make it home. There's no shame in that. Finishing the loop, however you can, is still finishing the loop.

Me, personally, getting past that critical point, embracing the suck. That's kinda the point. I hit that miserable point. I keep moving forward however I can. Whatever stupid bullshit comes up, you (I) just get through it. Somehow. it doesn't matter how. And then there's a bit of a release. Maybe just glide through the last few miles. Maybe rub some dirt on it and walk home. It doesn't really matter because I complete the loop. I sort of shed the vision of what it might be, and learn what it really is. And that's super helpful.

Mark Twain wrote life on the Mississippi, and wrote a lot about how cool it would be to be a riverboat pilot. The beautiful pink sky, the ripples on the water. And there's sort of a heartbreaking transition when he learns the pink sky means a storm is coming. the ripples mean there's a sandbar. In his unknowing dream, everything he loved about it was a disaster waiting to strike. He learned in his own way.

For me, there's a joy and romance to running a marathon that was completely unlike what I thought it was before I started.

So anyway, maybe the subtle shift from goal to quest is enough to help some people embrace the suck. Nothing is what you think it is without doing it. there are parts that are awful. if you can get through it, you'll get nothing you hoped for. but maybe the change of perspective is enough.

I honestly don’t disagree with you. I too experience “the suck”. But the good parts of runs make the suck worth it. It’s just a roll of the dice. You never know if it’s gonna suck.

Also I feel you on the taking breaks part. There’s no rules. Nothing beats sitting on the curb eating some junk and drinking some Gatorade mid-run.

sitting on the curb drinking gatorade is what it's all about. you, or I, just sort of accept that it's miserable. but survivable. It's a thing we can do.

my experience anyway. your milage may vary.

beautifully said

Yes. Personally, I enjoy the incremental problem solving perhaps too much — getting the last 10% of a project done before moving to the next is a challenge.

That said, and being aware of this trait, I started something that is a huge project (building a sail boat) for which I was completely unprepared (no experience, no tools). Each step was a challenge, but until the quest was finished meant nothing. Those last few steps were torture for me but getting it in the water and sailing it for the first time (and second, etc.) was amazing.

It’s the same thrill when my software gets used, and I now have renewed motivation to get some projects across the finish line and in people’s hands.

Two years well spent.

Is this the thinking behind the statement it's the journey, not the destination? Enjoy the journey because as soon as you reach your destination, you're going to embark on another journey!

Great perspective. I’m building a small wooden sailboat, and find I get demoralized and either rush or stop when I think about having a finished boat. Better to just think about the very next task.

Ultimately building a boat is for someone that likes building boats, not someone that just wants to sail… restoring a car is for someone that likes working on cars, not someone that just wants a finished car to drive.

There's a lot of truth to what you say. Some of my favorite people are process oriented!

I'm very, very goal oriented. I'll eagerly sacrifice process to get towards a goal. I find this works well with my work, SRE. Testing and redefining processes :D

This distinction really helps me realize how/why I get overwhelmed with projects of a certain size and go towards bisection

Interesting. As a platform engineer, practically everything I do at work has wide reaching implications so I really have no choice but to figure out how to break projects down into safe chunks that inevitably makes the project bigger and longer to complete. But those chunks grant verifiability and stability all the way through. Being a platform eng has taught me how to be process oriented.

Surprisingly I've learned to think like this (outside of work) thanks to Agile

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