Electric chainsaws and the gorge of misery
lcamtuf.substack.com
lcamtuf.substack.com
It does look like the California law also applies to professionals (though see jakewins' comment), which probably sucks, but I'm seeing more and more 36V gardening tools pop up, so maybe the transition won't be as hard as it looks.
The saw they show in the video and claim is banned is well above 45cc and entirely legal to sell in CA.
In effect, they’ve banned the tiny saws that were equivalent in power to electrics, and kept the mid-size and up that are needed for professional work.
Battery powered tools can be much more powerful than corded tools. Corded tools are limited to 1500W whereas battery powered tools are not. For example a corded snow blower would never be powerful enough, but you can get battery powered snow blowers that are quite usable. Some of them will run 4 56V batteries in parallel to get the power.
Nothing hand-held is going to give you 1500W of course, the batteries would be too heavy.
It's typically used by electric stoves, clothes dryers, etc. We use 110/120 Volts for most appliances for safety reasons.
The major battery are frantically trying to get high-volume manufacturing of solid state batteries to work. Samsung is providing samples to car companies.[1] Volume production around 2027, probably at premium prices at first. CATL is also trying for 2027, and says that volume manufacturing is "challenging". Toyota says 2028. Many smaller companies also are making announcements.
So, not immediately, but it's past the vaporware stage.
[1] https://www.electrive.com/2024/08/05/samsung-sdi-with-first-...
There are lots of startups, "Quantum" this and "Factorial" that, with pretty web sites and no shipping product. The big guys, Samsung, Toyota, Panasonic, CATL, etc. are saying these things are very hard to manufacture.
[1] https://www.techinsights.com/ebook/elusive-solid-state-batte...
I love them both. If I don't have to cut down actual trees, the 12" is great for cutting limbs, firewood, whatever, and takes the same batteries as my fan and my drill and my circular saw and my reciprocating saw and all my other tools.
The 16" does work the 12" just can't. And the extra power makes a big difference. But it overheats fast. Strongly recommend 2-3 batteries, not just for duration of function, but continuity of function. It's kind of a pain. Maybe it's better up north when it's less common to be 90° in the summer?
That's all by long way of saying, I love them, but there are downsides in terms of raw power and robust on-demand serviceability. Gas-powered chainsaws are just objectively better.
Trying to find some context on energy-storage here, the store-page doesn't really reveal the information I want, but using other sources and some napkin-math:
1. Gasoline model has a 0.65L fuel tank, so with gasoline that's about ~20 mega-joules of chemical energy.
2. Electric model might (?) use a BLi300 battery, so 9.4 amps * 36 volts * (60*60) = ~1.2 mega-joules.
So I'm not too surprised that either runtime or performance is being sacrificed, if they're similar in weight and consumers don't plan to swap batteries 16 times in the time that would use one tank of gas.
Gas is more dense for sure, but not as much as the energy difference. There are other savings as well, electrics turn on and off so quick, with a trigger that you make 100 cuts during an hour, with gas you leave it on to avoid having to pull start it. With an electric you hit the trigger for each cut. Similar for mowing, you often don't need max torque, but gas often runs at max torque/rpm even when not needed.
If you go with 30% and 90% you end-up with 6 vs ~1.1.
A bit less impressive and since; in the context of the law it's only applied to small saw; then electric might make sense if you are doing short burst of work.
However 36V/9Ah, is 30 li-ion cells, or a bit less than 1.5kg in li-ion. It's possible to improve that (not massively) by using better cells 21700.
Baring that - BLi300 is massively overpriced compared to what it costs to be produced.
Most of the energy in a gallon of fuel is converted into noise and heat. Most of the energy in a battery gets used by the engine for its intended purpose.
So, battery energy density should be a lot closer to what is needed than what you calculate here. It's still not ideal of course. As for the engine, I would expect an equivalent electrical motor (in power output) to actually be smaller and lighter than a petrol engine. If you take electrical semis as an example, you can actually pick up the motor and carry it around because it's small and light. Forget doing that with a typical diesel or petrol engine in even a small car.
As for the battery you mention, that was first launched in 2015. It's an old battery design. Hardly state of the art at this point. And probably not even back then. Husqvarna could probably update that with more modern cells and more than double the energy density. Going to solid state they could push it even further. There are some products with solid state batteries coming on the market now. I saw a review of a portable generator recently, for example. I think it's probably more cost constrained than technology constrained. But this stuff is definitely coming now.
But for a homeowner's odd chain saw jobs they beat gas powered chain saws hands down. Particularly if the use is infrequent, it starts when you press the button and no two stroke maintenance tools, space and knowledge required.
My small saw has scary amounts of torque, to the point where I am terrified of it. I don't think normal chain saw protectors will stop it in case of accident.
Chain saw protector clothing is filled with pockets of fibrous padding and when a chain breaks it, the fibers are supposed to clog the sprocket and stall the engine. Works with two strokes that have little torque at low rpm but electric motors have much more available.
I've cut much larger trunks of hardwood with the tiny saw than you would think possible.
The electric saw just works. Yes, you need to have multiple batteries. Yes, it’s not great for big trees ( 40 cm or bigger diameter). But at least it runs.
There seems to, weirdly, be more poorly designed engines or some such. But if you find a good one, it's like night and day.
And it's not normal for them to always have issues. People make a living off of them.
It's about power and weight. You don't carry a push mower; the engine can be heavy and powerful. A trimmer doesn't need much power; the engine can be light and low power.
But a chainsaw: You have to carry all the weight for long periods, and yet you need a lot of power. Relatively speaking they're hot rod engines with a higher power to weight ratio. That's why they're generally harder to start and burn so much fuel as well.
> And it's not normal for them to always have issues. People make a living off of them.
Correct. Drain the fuel, every time. If you let the mix evaporate and leave behind gobs of oil, you're the problem. When storing for long periods put it somewhere heated to avoid condensation cycles.
No problems.
I agree in general though - same for EVs right, much less maintenance - but for chainsaws the difference in power output can be lethal. Felling trees you need a saw you don’t have to fight to get into the wood, so you can focus on safety and how you’re cutting
Edit: Thankfully this blog turns out to be fearmongering nonsense; they are banning small saws, 45cc and down. The saw in the video is well above that.
So either this isn’t a comparable chainsaw, or else the first impressions are misleading and the gorge of misery lays ahead, or tech is getting better?
Excellent excellent vlog btw, warmly recommended.
When I am not using the chainsaw, those batteries power 9 or 10 other tools that are necessary around my house and perform very well. The charger I got with the chainsaw package charges two 18V batteries as fast as they can be safely charged.
Around this same time, I bought a Honda gasoline-powered mower. The reason I went with a gasoline-powered mower and lithium ion power tools for other purposes was running time.
At the time, the gasoline powered mower was the only one available that would run for the time I need to cut the entire lawn.
Now, most of the lithium ion-powered tool brands have 40V/80V systems that are more powerful than their 18V/36V product line. If I needed to replace the Honda gas-powered mower, I'd probably consider an 80V lithium ion mower.
But most of the tools I already own couldn't use the 40V batteries, so I'd want to consider buying at least one other tool that powerful in order to capture greater value in the new battery and charger investment.
Get a robot, it trashes pretty much any other mowing equipment if the terrain allows it. Extremely low maintenance (time), virtually no noise whatsover. You also get perfectly even lawn at all times.
Based on personal experience having: a gas mower, gas a brushcutter, a battery strimmer, and the robot. Since the property is not that large, you would not need a riding mower or a zero-turnaround.
The one that I can't help but laugh at a bit is the battery powered mower. I totally understand it works for some use cases, but for those it fails at it's really really bad. 30 minutes advertised runtime turns into 5 when you are dealing with a lawn in the gulf coast region during the summer.
What’s banned are much much smaller saws - 45cc and down - that are, just like the video shows, in the same ballpark as electric saws.
Rather than spreading anti-climate fear mongering, you can simply refer to the state website to see what implements are covered by the law: https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/resources/fact-sheets/sore-applicabil...
The one thing I don't get is why the battery is at the top where you hold it instead of near the bottom: it would be much lighter to hold for the wrist, and in addition if the weight were at the bottom it'd press the head better to the floor
My main reasons for using the battery saws are:
- quiet – great when you want to start work before 0700 or work on Sundays.
- no fumes.
- no need to repeatedly start the saw via pull cord.
I used to have a Stihl MSA 161 T but it was woefully under powered and not suitable for high volume production use.
Have yet to try the new Stihl MSA 300 which according to Stihl "is the first battery chainsaw that was specially designed for professional work by STIHL"
Regarding regulations - the solution is to not ban things. States like California love to use hard bans as solutions to everything but it is better to just incentivize some things and allow choice to still exist. After all, if what you’re prescribing is truly better wouldn’t people naturally choose it?
There are some caveats. Electric chainsaw's top performance falls slightly as the battery is depleted.
There's an interesting review here, with data tables: https://nordicwoodjournal.com/deep/testing-the-stihl-msa-300...
I have cut 12" logs on a small electric chain saw with batteries and it works pretty damn well. Much better than a small gas powered chain saw of similar size because of the ample amounts of torque available.
But of course the small saws have a limited capacity and for hard forestry work you should opt for a tool suitable for the job.
As pointed out by another commenter, there is no ban on large gas powered chain saws (contrary to what TFA suggests), only the small ones which are in the same category with the electric ones.
No, not really. People are very bad at choosing the thing that will result in the best outcome for themselves, let alone for the rest of us.
How would you incentivize using electric tools? Slap a really high tax on gasoline might work; I'm sure all the car owners will understand. /s
> After all, if what you’re prescribing is truly better wouldn’t people naturally choose it?
No, because pollution is a typical collective action problem (or negative externality, if you like to think in terms of economics). When only you use your gas car and chainsaw, in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter. And maybe you do it because for you personally those really are better than the electric alternatives? But when everybody does it, you get smog and climate change.
EU has a hefty tax on the gas (both excise and VAT) - that doesn't do much to prevent the use of petrol engines (both 2 and 4 stroke) in gardening equipment (zero ethanol is just standard at the pump, though). However, the large heavy cars are not common.
My electric chainsaw has seem a lot of work, but you really have to be sure you have enough batteries to get the job done.
The experience is so much better than gas though. No terrible fumes, no continuously filling up two different tanks every 30 minutes, relatively quiet, no flooded engines, no having to pull start 20 times in cold weather, no dealing with fuel filters and worry about leaving gas in the tank.
There is no way I’d put up with battery powered, as when I’ve having to run the saw I’m cleaning up whole trees falling over, cutting in to rounds for splitting, and occasionally doing a bad job of slabbing some maple for the wife’s wood shop.
I’ve got a 5hp husky, that always seems to start unlike my previous stihl, and I’m pretty happy with it.
But I’m not really going to be happy until I have a fusion powered saw.
A tiny gas tank, 1 gallon, can refuel a chainsaw dozens of times. In seconds. Carrying 100s of batteries isn't viable, nor is the economic cost of them.
We are getting there. Probably within a decade, we'll have a 2x or 4x power density leap in people's hands, and the equations will change. To me though, charge time is what will make a bigger difference.
If we could reduce charge time by 10x, that's huge. Everything would change.
And that will happen.
You can also buy a battery pack backpack: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQUhCXPkzsc (I haven't tried it).
Picking up and putting down a tool is a lot more work with a backpack and a cord. If you go around doing a ton of one kind of work (eg: weed whacking, blowing, sweeping) then it's fine. If you are pruning a tree and have to go between throwing branches and cutting them, it's annoying to manage the cord. Also, climbing hills with a heavy backpack isn't wonderful. Anywhere with slightly unsteady footing is made worse with a giant lithium ion battery strapped to your back.
As for the power/speed of cutting with the electric combi-polesaw... it's pretty great. I've had one for just over 5 years and the most maintenance I've had to do is replace chains and add bar oil. No carb tuning/cleaning. No worries about extended periods of inactivity. No two-stroke oil to mix into hard-to-find non-ethanol gasoline.
Overall, I love the thing but don't get the idea that it's a 1:1 replacement.
I'm not a chainsaw guy myself, but it was quite nice to use when I've borrowed it.
Also heavily recommend the higher end Makita electric blowers. Don't go cheap. You save 10dB with the best ones.
The argument that batteries are no good for power tools is bullshit. If you are a professional gardener who is too cheap to pay for some extra batteries, charge $5 extra per hour for 'silent service'. The neighbours will love you.
Observations:
- If you put aside annoyances created by the battery or cord, the electric motors are vastly superior to the petrol ones. Battery aside they are lighter and easier to handle. They always start, they don't get hot, they are quiet. His comments about torque are completely off. He should be able to tell there something odd going on by comparing EV's with gas car. When it comes to short term power even the most gutless EV will demolish the gas car.
- A 120V/240V is of course useless if you aren't adjacent to a house. But for work around the house the trade off is the cord vs near unlimited power, very light, superb balance, always starts, infinite run time and cheap. Still, some people can't stand organising that long extension cord.
- Batteries fix that, but batteries are heavy and don't last very long. Not lasting long isn't an impossible problem as swapping them over is fast, faster than refilling the chain oil which lasts about one battery charge anyway. But batteries are also expensive to buying all those spares costs a small fortune.
- Battery backpacks mean the saw remains very light, remarkably so. I have one. I find myself using small battery packs and hefting the chainsaw around rather than using a backpack. This of course means frequent battery changes, but it only takes seconds.
- While a small light electric motor can easily demolish a gas engine at any given speed / torque setting, the power draw places a huge demand on the battery. They overheat. Not a big program as you can swap batteries and let them cool down - but again they are expensive.
- The outcome for me is for non-continuous use, battery / electric wins hands down. Continuous use means a carrying around a lot of very expensive batteries, and a lot of chargers so they are read in the morning. The only thing that counts as continuous use for me is chopping up a wood pile. When you are dissecting a tree you are moving most of the time, which gives the battery a chance to cool.
- Despite all the complaints above about batteries, my chief annoyance isn't the battery or cord. It's the bloody chains they ship with electric chain saws. Here he is spot on. Rule number 1 is keep the thing sharpened. Or at least it is in Australia, home to some of the works hardest hardwoods. Ironbark is the most common tree on my property. https://www.borthwick.com.au/species/hardness-rating After cutting down just one of them and your chain needs to be sharpened, but manually sharpening a chain is a skilled job. You have to be remarkably consistent over 30 or so teeth. I couldn't do it, so I bought a electric sharpener. They are dirt cheap compared to replacing chains. Beware the still require some "skill" to use, you can't be sloppy about it and take short cuts. Every tooth has to be in precisely the position that matches the chain manufactures specifications, and has to be held firmly while you sharpen.
- The Oregon 90PX052X is the most commonly shipped chain with electric and home use chain saws, and it is complete a pain in the arse. I have no idea why, but even with an electric chain sharpener I can only do a few sharpens before the bloody thing starts slicing curves. I bought cheaper replacements from eBay, and to my total surprise they are far better. More chiselled, and far easier to sharpen.
Also do commercial gardening work, battery is not fit for purpose in a business. If you want a leafy city, it's not electric at this stage.
So much so I find this hard to believe "California ban on certain gas-powered tools", but too lazy to Google.
Random trivia, of the battery tools we have battery chainsaws do pretty good for length time. Don't really have a good mental model why? I guess cutting wood is not "work", moving air like in a blower is "work"
Perhaps because when you're using a chainsaw you're rarely actually cutting all the time? Most of the time is spent setting up and moving things around.
If I'm there to bring in wood it's generally a two person job, one to cut another to position and stack and once the chainsaw starts it's on and cutting until the tank runs dry with fairly minimal idling time.
There's a lot more idle time when cleaning up firebreaks, it's moving from tree to tree and often the branches that need clearing require a ladder or standing on a cab roof or in a hiab bucket to reach.
Also, with due respect, you've never been present when I or my father have cut wood, shorn sheep, loaded hay, or otherwise worked in the field. These activities get optimised via repetition to have minimal slack time and maximal throughput.
With an assistant the chain rarely stops, as one cut is completed wood has been positioned already for the next cut .. perhaps you've never been that efficient.
It's not possible to clear five tonne of cutting and splitting rounds in a day without minimising dead time.