Ask HN: How to shift mindset from goal-oriented to progress-oriented? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: How to shift mindset from goal-oriented to progress-oriented?

33 pointselanius27 comments

I have always been a goal-oriented person and thought it was an advantage, but as I get older, I'm changing my mind. I believe that people who enjoy the process are at an advantage.

When I start a project, I can imagine all the main steps to reach the goal, but actually starting has become increasingly difficult. If I could enjoy the process as much as I enjoy the results, I would be able to persistently achieve more.

Does anyone have a similar experience or any tips on how to better enjoy the process?

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I'll say something that sounds really unhelpful until one day it makes sense. You don't really choose the process, the process chooses you. You can't make yourself 'enjoy the process' for something that doesn't resonate, because it will always feel a chore. So the one and only trick is to really pay attention to the thing you keep going back to, and in a way accept that this is a path.

Some people might say "But I only enjoy video games!" and if that's the case, I don't really know what to say to that. All the people I know who have found great alignment with a path of progress are ones where the effort tickles an itch they would have regardless, so might as well scratch that itch.

And there are still goals, that doesn't change.

For people who say things like, “I only enjoy video games,” my usual response is to ask them to think about what aspects of video games they like. Strategy, teamwork, grinding, solving puzzles, exploring, etc? And there may be another why deeper than that. The “why” can often translate to other domains where it can be applied to projects/work.

I probably don't understand everything you wrote. However, I think I don't agree with you. If I just did what I enjoyed, I would quickly fall into bad habits, which would later lead to even greater depression.

I think you’re saying "But I only enjoy video games!". You should reread what the gp said.

If this is the case then the above advice is not useful, because it just tells you you are only thinking about video games.

TBH I do think it's impossible to change one's mindset. Because no one can grind on what he doesn't like for long. Some people are just born to do great things while most of us "just enjoy video games" and try to grind again and again without success.

This is a bit of a Zen thing you're describing. A lot of different approaches and theories on getting to the same thing here I would say. It's hard to think of specific advice here beyond "just start doing it" which does not seem very helpful. Maybe a good insight here is "practice will make it easier."

I think ultimately for me this mindset was cultivated at a pretty young age with some writing and art I happened to come across. I love content like that and seek it out now. I think you can become more and more growth mindset oriented with time. I'll share some of the things I've liked on the topic here, maybe that will be useful:

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/7727986-mountains-should-be... (this is a quote, but recommend this whole book)

https://www.amazon.com/Mindset-Psychology-Carol-S-Dweck/dp/0...

https://youtu.be/etEJrznE-c0?si=Eaq8aycm8Yxn1v56

To echo this with a for instance; I used to loathe running meetings. I fumbled. I wasn’t confident. I was disorganized.

Now, after running more than I can count, I look forward to it! I got gud. Every meeting was an opportunity to practice and learn more about how to run them effectively. I played with strategies and even though most didn’t work, I found out what did work.

If something doesn’t scratch your itch initially, that doesn’t mean it won’t in time. Be with experience instead of against it.

One trick is be aware of how much you enjoy different processes.

I find for example I prefer everything to be a small task. I like to separate planning from coding and don't try to do both simultaneously. That works for me. You may be the same or different.

That is one example. The idea is to understand what you like and hate about the work. Not what you think you should like but what you actually like.

Sounds to me like you are looking for an artificial solution to a made up problem.

There will never be a magic pill or magic “mind shift” that will just make you enjoy whatever path you take.

Are you choosing unnecessarily miserable steps, or adding unnecessary misery into the goals themselves?

I'm ashamed to admit this but I have a few blank PCBs I ordered and never did anything with, because... it was just a personal project, and populating SMD parts by hand seems like so much fun until you actually... start doing it.

Working on a Svelte app is often pretty fun. Building a new JS runtime, framework, and build system does not sound fun.

I started building a shed last year to use as a home office. The exterior is done and complete, and the interior is maybe 80% done.

I just need to add the remaining bits of insulation around the tricky, sloping corners, then wrap and seal them before laying some plywood to use as walls. My electrician has been waiting for me to do so since May.

I tried it out during the winter and it was surprisingly cozy inside despite the missing insulation and some air gaps. It's rather toasty now in summer though.

I just, haven't found the motivation to complete it.

Is it possible perfection is preventing getting it done? Could you close the walls and enjoy the space as is?

Sometimes it is easier to work on someone else’s house because you are not seeking perfection. Do you have a friend that could help you? Or the electrician?

If you enjoy the goal, but not the process, there's a term for it - it's called a grind. It's no different from weight loss or any other unpleasant chores. You choose to temporarily suffer in order to accomplish the goal. Incidentally, after reading a bunch of biographies, I think many high-achievers are into suffering, they get a kick out of it. Someone like Goggins makes it explicit, but I think it's fairly prevalent.

I should read Goggins. I just saw an interview with him. It looks like you need a huge amount of willpower and motivation. However, willpower is taxing for the brain, which tries to avoid it unless absolutely necessary.

I've been making this shift as well.

Start thinking about what a good work day looks like. What tasks are you doing? Who are you working with? Where are you working? When? What technologies? Etc etc.

Then start working backwards and figure out what type of work you can do in that ideal work day environment. For me, I'm having to undergo a massive career shift but I'm much happier than I ever was.

I think a good place to start would be the question "Why do I feel different now?"

> If I could enjoy the process as much as I enjoy the results, I would be able to persistently achieve more.

This is an assumption, be wary.

My advice: Explore this new feeling and where it's coming from, rather than trying to work around it.

The advice you asked for: Start somewhere. Anywhere. Anything. Momentum is your friend.

> It's just the repetition of things you already know, and this is what I have started to hate.

Reading one of your comments, I solved that by using LLM's. If you can't, maybe what you need is trying new things that don't involve those steps you already hate. Maybe ask someone to help you with the boring stuff.

How can you achieve more results (goals) persistently by enjoying the process (the thing that takes time) as much? More results in less time or more time to enjoy the process you will hopefully find enjoyable. Can’t you outsource the process and just enjoy the results?

Breaking down a large goal into smaller milestones could be a good “change of process” for you.

With smaller milestones you get the gratification of reaching goals often, projects are easier to start and you can retain the goal-driven mindset!

Use lead indicators instead of lag indicators. Focus on measuring your day to day focus instead of some long term goal.

Make more incremental goals, to the point they may sound trivial. With small enough goals they become synonymous with the process.

I’ve been thinking about this and am looking for a deeper understanding. Some activities people enjoy don’t have a concrete goal.

I remember a situation from my teenage years when a friend wanted to assemble an old PC just for fun. I declined because it didn’t make sense to me—I didn’t see any value in it.

Now, I realize that this attitude might be more valuable because it keeps you engaged even when there isn't a specific goal in sight.

>Make more incremental goals

This is along the lines of what I was thinking, especially with long-term projects.

Try to set achievable milestones each of which pick up where the previous one left off, even if the first milestone is not a very big fraction of the total progress needed.

>The advice you asked for: Start somewhere. Anywhere. Anything. Momentum is your friend.

This is so true too.

Incremental milestones need to be at a natural stopping point, in case rest or rejuvenation is needed, but need to be carefully handled so no real momentum is lost. The default should be action even after significant progress, or action continuing after a final goal is fully reached.

Can you think of a more feasible way to make actual progress on a goal that may be recognized as out-of-reach in a single lifetime?

What about a goal that may or may not be impossible in a lifetime? How would you know for sure, and whose lifetime would that apply to?

Other things may or may not be possible in a year, so you have to draw the line somewhere :)

Sounds like you need to cultivate curiosity. How to do that, I am not sure. It’s one of those inherent traits that’s often hard to change.

Curiosity is fine. The problem is that if you want to achieve something, you need to go through a lot of small steps that don't involve anything new. It's just the repetition of things you already know, and this is what I have started to hate.

However, it seems that some people can enjoy this, and I don't understand how they do it.

I don't think you can. We don't really own our minds.

At least in the professional world, I believe the key is knowing that "work" is an artificial construct designed to make owners and shareholders richer at the expense of you, the working drone. So "making progress" becomes a lot more palatable than quickly delivering what the capitalists want.

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