The meanest app: Duolingo subjects its users to "emotional blackmail"
businessinsider.com
businessinsider.com
I've always disliked and distrusted Duolingo (and before that, Rosetta Stone), for providing people the basics (which they do just fine) but making it seem like fluency is always just one more upgrade or lesson around the corner while not-so-subtly implying that it's your fault that you're not there yet.
Even for the most talented learners of languages it takes many, many more hours and types of exposure that these apps cannot achieve. For Arabic, for instance, the military gave us 88 weeks of full-day instruction with native speakers, in addition to homework. And that's all just to achieve basic reading/listening fluency. And many of the people who start the program (and have passed an aptitude test even to start the program) do not complete it.
Like I said, it's as good as anything to start, but it's the marketing of it as the complete package that irks me.
It's disappointing to me how many people try learning a language with Duolingo, do not succeed, then just "accept" that they're "bad with languages" and "can't learn them".
After about 2 years with my language I'm able to read at around an A2/B1 level. Listening is hit or miss in the A1/A2 level. It depends a lot on the speaker. But I can't speak at all, clearly my brain hasn't rewired itself to think on the fly like that.
But that's fine. For me.
I have seen people claim that duolingo made them able to consume simple content or have basic conversation (usually they claim it about Spanish which is the longest course).
But at least it's not University courses which are, dollar for dollar, ridiculously overpriced.
I succumbed to paying for the app since it is virtually unusable with the frequency of ads on the freemium model.
They are a very dislikable brand.
I can definitely see why you'd want to be able to dial back the notifications, though.
On principle, I'd usually be on your side in this kind of situation. But again, for me, in this particular case, the nagging is a feature, not a nuisance. Besides, of all the things an app can nag you about, learning a language is pretty innocuous.
Fun fact: if you have a pi-hole, the only ad you'll ever get is their own ad promoting Super Duolingo. I'm assuming it's a video embedded in the app somewhere.
Then why are you using Duolingo in the first place?
That app has to be the worst method, because people think they are progressing while they in fact don't. From personal experience it's the worst method I tired to learn a language, and the content present for languages I know isn't good either.
1. If you can't afford something better. I keep getting pummeled on the leaderboard by people doing 5000+ XP/week worth of English for Spanish Speakers. None of them have Super Duolingo (you can see if they have it by looking at their profile)
2. If you're testing the waters. I already talked about the money, but a semester of a language class is a big time commitment, too. You also lose scheduling flexibility that's especially desirable when you don't know if you want to commit to a class yet.
Then there's supplemental, extracurricular practice. If you never use a language outside of class, you'll lose it very quickly. Anyone who had to take a language class in middle/high school knows this. Duolingo (or any other app) can help reinforce learning, by regularly poking the "foreign language" part of your brain, even on days when you aren't in class.
The reason I use Duolingo because it's the only thing I'll actually use, thanks to the emotional blackmail.
Awesome to be learning something new either way though!
Edit: I reworded my original comment to sound much less harsh. Same sentiment, better delivery!
You might not lack discipline but most people that lacks it have a really hard time doing this:
"if you need to learn something, set a schedule like an hour each morning before anyone else is up, and take control and learn it."
In my case, I'm learning German. My wife already knows a good bit of German (which she learned in "real" classes, not Duolingo) so I have a captive practice buddy. We speak German with each other sometimes, and she has coached me through some things Duolingo can't - like properly articulating the German "ch" sound.
I like your approach, by the way - it's almost exactly what I use for my photography. I wake up with the sun, about 2 hours before my wife, and I go make photos.
The thing about HN comment threads is that you don't know who anyone is. So, the natural(?) assumption ends up being that anyone who disagrees with you is the perfect strawman for your own side of the argument. In my case, I have a support structure outside of Duolingo, I have an active interest in taking my learning outside the app...
and I still find the gamification and notifications helpful. I just don't feel very motivated some days, but I still get a few lessons in! Something in me wants to be high up on that leaderboard. Is this the healthiest way to harness behavioral psychology to learn a language? I don't know, I'm not a psychologist. In any case, I'm practicing German every day, and that's pretty cool.
With Duolingo, I think the ends justify the means. FWIW you can turn off the notifications in your phone's settings, and emails are easy to direct to junk/spam/whatever black hole you prefer.
Like most people with young kids these days, I’m struggling with the reduced willpower people are trading for their digital conveniences. My original comment took that reflexivity too far and ignored the obvious utility of apps (I have ones I use too!) with a blanket assumption.
Cheers!
What makes you think all minds are equally capable of controlling their own discipline? (look up executive dysfunction)
(I love my job, but that unfortunately doesn't stop it from being made nearly impossible for me. thanks, ADHD)
So, if there is an app that makes me want to open it, enjoy the process, then it is pure gain. Sometimes I get double motivated and do extras (content consumption, reading grammar), other times I just keep the streak.
But if I had to wake up every day an hour sooner to study language, then I would be forgetting everything in two weeks, because that would genuinely lowered my quality of life.
And yes, I am ok with idea that you will learn faster then I will.
Rosetta Stone was the big player before Duolingo. They had a method that involved not using your mother tongue, which they called 'immersion'. I believe in the recent years (since Duolingo ate their pie) they have moved more and more towards dueling style learning. They have an app that's a lot more corporate, but I've heard good things about it too
Note, I haven't used either of these applications in years, I just work in the space and this is my understanding of them
Babbel sounds interesting.
After a year on busuu and 1000 days on duolingo, I find the former way better for language acquisition.
edit: long time lingvist user, I'm also a huuuuge fan.
But sometimes it would be useful to know what a different, already shown, word means.
For context I'm working on a language learning app (phrasing.app) and I'm pretty against gamification. I've got a couple different review methods (listening, tapping, and typing) but I assume you're referring to a more complete feature set.
PS: If anyone wants to beta test the application, contact me on twitter @barrelltech. I just got everything re-released this weekend, so I'm just now starting to work on user guides and documentation!
Thanks!
However, the "memorization techniques" of most language apps really boil down to "spaced repetition" (SRS) of some form, which is basically doing reps, and having the space between reps increase over time as you remember them better.
Anki and Mochi are two spaced repetition systems (which will require you to create or find your own flashcards, but will take care of spacing out when to review them), and if you google for spaced repetition software targeting your target language, you'll probably find other alternatives too.
I personally find Anki to be a joy of a piece of software, and after using it for 5 years I have no intention of stopping or switching to another SRS app.
I don't really get the framing of this article.
And book as your only resource have massive drop put rates. People generally give up very soon.
> people would still not picked book as replacement
Yes, exactly.
> And book as your only resource have massive drop put rates. People generally give up very soon.
Yes, entirely correct.
That's what something like Duolingo promises to solve and these obstacles (independent of Duolingo) are why people won't pick up a book or do other forms of self-learning instead. They want a service like Duolingo, because it promises to make learning more approachable and accessible and provides mental tricks to keep you engaged regularly and long-term.
Which brings me around to my original argument: The article is framing it in this weirdly malicious way as if it isn't exactly what people wanted from a service like Duolingo. It's like turning a water boiler on and then getting upset that the water is hot. I thought that was the point?
For whatever it is worth, I know you did not wrote it, the "pick a textbook for language learning" meme is sort of my pet peeve. I kinda suspect that people saying it never learned foreign language.
Psychological manipulation to increase your engagement in something you want to do and is paying for the privilege of doing is in your interest. Signing up for a physical class and have the scheduled class drive you to attend even if you weren't really in the mood at that time is also psychological manipulation.
It's only negative once it stops being productive, because Duolingo has limitations.
The problem with this approach is that it takes several hours to get through a couple of sentences.
All of the effort is frontloaded; if you stick with it, your pace will rapidly improve. But starting is a challenge.
There's quite a big difference between their language classes though, but I do prefer alternative apps that target a specific language with laser focus. They tend to have better organic content for the purpose of practice.
You also need to realize that you will only truly be good at the language if you get to practice using it with other speakers. Something needs to click in your head in the right way.
I would expect something similar to exist for other popular languages - I know that is the case for Japanese at least.
Let me introduce "Fuck you, Inc.", if you're not into us then fuck you.
It was nagging me, and I just ignored it. It's bad, of course, that I have ignored it, because as a result, learning hasn't happened. But it was very easy for me to ignore it. I didn't feel blackmailed.
And then I keep wondering what all those years of nagging telemarketing calls one has learned to hang up on despite all the tricks can do to one's psyche.
For me the worst is that when you indulge, you feel bad and will do something; but with Duolingo you are still indulging the same, however it makes you feel accomplished and that you made your work.
No, you didn't — You just watched the ads they wanted you to watch. Doing nothing is literally better than Duolingo.