Comment by gizmo | Hacker News Reader

Comment by gizmo | Hacker News Reader

This reads like a strategy for creating filler content. If you have to write a school essay an outline helps you churn through all the BS. By contrast, when you try to write something meaningful almost all effort goes into two things (a) figuring out what you actually have to say and (b) finding the right words to express it. School essays are written by people who don't have anything to say. Intro fluff. Chapter one fluff. Conclusion fluff. It's not real writing. You can speedrun it because no thinking is involved.

The same applies to fluff software, but only to fluff software. If you have to create a page with a dozen buttons with a bunch of click handlers, hook those up to basic AJAX calls, then yes, you can speedrun that as well. Because it's extremely easy work that involves no thinking.

Many things in life are kind of mundane and tedious. Fake school work, taxes, cleaning, ironing, to give just a few examples. And having strategies to blast through that kind of work effectively is useful. But these strategies absolutely unhelpful when you're trying to do anything creative or difficult.

You can't write a great spy novel with an outline like: 'introduce spy character', 'successful mission 1 in present time', 'flash back to failed earlier mission', 'introduction of big bad guy', 'flash back to tragic backstory', 'spy gets assigned special mission only his handler knows about'. Filling out an outline like this produces an uninspired, boring, formulaic trash. You end up with bad airport reading, the equivalent of AI slop.

To give another example: PG spends MONTHS on a single essay. He is not bottlenecked by a missing outline. Speedrunning the wiring process doesn't help. Figuring out exactly what you want to say is the hard part. Putting words on paper is trivial in comparison.

It's interesting that you use Paul Graham as an example. Another comment in this thread shows him using the outline technique for one of his essays: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41149003

Yes, he didn't come up with the ideas from scratch as he was writing them. It took years to gain the experience and expertise. Yet he still saw the value in outlining when the time came to write it down.

> Filling out an outline like this produces an uninspired, boring, formulaic trash

So write a better outline. George R. R. Martin and Agatha Christie both used extensive notes and outlines as part of their writing process.

> She made endless notes in dozens of notebooks, jotting down erratic ideas and potential plots and characters as they came to her “I usually have about half a dozen (notebooks) on hand and I used to make notes in them of ideas that struck me, or about some poison or drug, or a clever little bit of swindling that I had read about in the paper”.

> She spent the majority of time with each book working out all the plot details and clues in her head or her notebooks before she actually started writing.

https://www.agathachristie.com/about-christie/how-christie-w...

I think the main confusion is about the speedrunning aspect. You don't speedrun gathering thoughts, you speedrun turning those thoughts (that took weeks, months, or years to develop) into writing. You may not struggle with writing, but a lot of people absolutely are.

I think that's an overly uncharitable read on this approach. Lots of tasks that have difficult thoughts, that need to be thought before they can be completed, also have phases in which work just has to be done. I'm in the middle of collaborating on an article for submission to a physics journal. I wouldn't term it filler work, but most of the complex thoughts on the problem have been thought through and the work right now is creating a coherent story that goes over our results. An outline method would work fine for this part of the project.

As for the spy novel, i think the outlining is actually quite similar to how Sylvester Stallone described his writing process[0]. You wouldn't fill the outline with generic beats, you would put in your basic plan for the story.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_xqfkVNwEU

It sounds like we are mostly in agreement, actually. Mathematicians don't start by creating an outline of a paper they have to write. They start by proving a theorem of some kind -- that's the part that involves thinking hard -- and only after they have something worth publishing does it make sense to think in terms of an outline. Proving the theorem take take a mathematician months (or a lifetime). Writing the paper takes an afternoon.

It's the same for software. By time time you understand the problem well enough that you can write down a list of things to be done you're already way past the "thinking hard" stage.

Sylvester Stallone wrote the script for rocky in 3 days. He could do this because he had already figured out the concepts, the theme, the characters and their personalities way ahead of time. He had worked on it in his head for years. By the time he started typing 90% of the work was already done. Nothing Stallone wrote later in his career was as good as his original rocky script.

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