Robin Warren, pathologist who rewrote the science on ulcers, has died
washingtonpost.com
washingtonpost.com
My dad has a large amount of scar tissue in his stomach from repeated ulcers. They magically went away when the doc lit a cigarette and told him they were gonna remove part of his stomach if it happened again. Never had an ulcer after that. Instead he would break out in hives when his stress level rose.
For the money he/she would get for doing the invasive procedure. This happens even in developed countries.
I spent a week in bed in excruciating pain, throwing up blood regularly. The doctor visited a couple of times, I'm not sure what he told my mother, but it was a week before he agreed I should go to hospital.
At that stage I was severely anemic and had peritonitis. I ended up in surgery to have a third of my stomach and some of my small intestine removed. A couple of weeks in intensive care and another few weeks in the children's ward before I was strong enough to go home.
When I left, I was told that I shouldn't eat acidic or spicy foods, and that I had an ulcer because of stress. I was 10, and I can tell you, while we didn't have a whole lot, I was far from being stressed.
Nearly 40 years later that surgery still impacts on my life. I still have some digestion issues, but knowing that Warren's & Marshall's work has prevented others from repeating my experiences has been some comfort.
Good on your doctor for trying something experimental which had such a great outcome.
I got a different doctor after that.
Robin Warren is someone who I respected the hell out of. It takes a lot of tenacity and determination to go against something when everyone is constantly telling you you're wrong. He will be missed.
ETA:
I should point out that I am aware that stress can aggravate and (potentially) cause some forms of ulcers, though I really wasn't terribly stressed at that point in my life, which I tried explaining to the doctor and he wouldn't hear it. My job was going fine, I didn't really have any debt, I had a decent relationship with my girlfriend (now wife), I really didn't feel stressed out at all.
I really wasn't stressed at that time; outside of the typical annoyances of being alive, my life was going pretty ok at that point, which I tried telling the doctor and he didn't believe me. After that I went to a different doc and she gave me antibiotics and I healed after a few weeks.
I am extremely thankful that I have not had an ulcer again since then, because it was the worst thing ever.
Why zebras don't get ulcers
And yeah, it can take a while.
My dream is to a have a dumb doctor/mechanic/plumber/blah that just researches even the most basic questions unless it’s something really odd-ball and only then defaulting to their “expert opinion”.
For example, several years ago significant cataract improvement was achieved by applying to eyes lanasterol (chemical in your body clearing cataract naturally) with DMSO (well known widely used solvent which is used in particular to deliver various medicine through the skin, etc., and some adventurous people are also using it to for example deliver dye into eyes to change the eye color). Several other scientific teams at different places tried to reproduce the result by applying lanasterol without DMSO, and no improvement happened. They concluded that the original study effect is non-reproducible and that the application of lanasterol is non-effective. I'm not kidding - you can google these articles yourselves.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36484206/
I see stories about this being used for cataracts going back almost a decade.
Medicine advances so slowly.
>Medicine advances so slowly.
This is one on my deepest existential fears - not just in medicine - the Ancient Greeks could have had steam turbine based ships, yet it took more than 2000 years, and i'm wondering with a tint of fear what wonderful things we're missing on and what Dark Ages we have to pass through before getting to those things (and i'm not going to see them being long gone before it). The high-tech with AI, etc. is the only area where i feel that the progress has at least some minimally reasonable speed (or at least it is hardly reasonable to ask Nature for something faster than the Moore law), and if it were in high-tech there would be already 10 start-ups funded by at least $100M each perfecting and productizing the combinations of DMSO+lanosterol and exploring the similar approaches :) Unfortunately it seems there is no money here, and the Robin Warren's discovery didn't make him a billionaire.
Mining garbage dumps for resources could of course be a thing, but probably not abundant energy.
This time there is no plan B. We either become an interplanetary species or this planet eventually becomes our tomb. Probably a couple millennia.
> We either become an interplanetary species or this planet eventually becomes our tomb.
Yes, only my version of the "tomb" is that it would be our planetary scale ant city/colony as we become totally connected and our societies naturally become highly totalitarian (not necessarily due to some ideology, you'd just naturally have less and less space/resources/opportunities for your private endeavors). Some ant colonies exist uninterrupted for several thousand years, no progress, just happy busy ants doing their happy stuff. Only few of us who'd get off that planet will have a chance to continue the civilizational progress. Kind of bifurcation of our species. Interesting that Musk advances our civilization in both directions - neural implants as well as SpaceX.
So some part of new medical information might spread faster than I had thought.
* My ear problem turned out to be that my ear canal was full of wax. I guess we didn't really need ChatGPT that day.. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I guess on HN we're all relatively pro-science. But the world would be a better place if we recognised that our scientific knowledge in some areas is poorer than we like to pretend.
I started feeling that way when I worked alongside some "Evidence-Based Medicine" advocates. Years later I've landed in data science and the standards of statistical analysis and understanding I see especially in the biological sciences has only made me more sceptical.
Way back in 2007 the BMJ as part of its Clinical Evidence project published its systematic research into standards of evidence in support of common medical treatments. Some 2500 treatments were evaluated to determine whether they are supported by sufficient reliable evidence.
• 13% were found to be beneficial. • 23% were likely to be beneficial. • 8% were as likely to be harmful as beneficial. • 6% were unlikely to be beneficial. • 4% were likely to be harmful or ineffective. • 46% were unknown whether they were efficacious or harmful.
It's quite hard to find the original Clinical Evidence project resources (might be a job for the wayback machine) but you can find it referenced all over, e.g. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2071976/ .
In the 1970s the US Office of Technology Assessment conducted a similar evaluation of medical treatments' efficacy and found that only 10% to 20% of medical treatments had evidence of efficacy. I would love to see more recent research in this vein.
There are clearly many complications and caveats around all this. Not all "common treatments" are easily studied -- the gold standard of the RCT is not always feasible or ethical. And of course absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, etc... but it sometimes feels we should be a bit more humble about even our best science.
"What are you talking about?" I asked.
"You said the stress of getting ready to leave for the office triggers your attacks," he said.
"I work from home!!" I said. "_YOU_ posed a hypothetical and I answered with a hypothetical: that it would certainly be stressful if that happened. I also said I still have the IBS attacks when I don't have a stressful day."
In my opinion general practitioners (who are not therapists) putting their patient's issues down to "anxiety" or stress is like doctors diagnosing "hysteria" in 19th century women: it contains the in-built subtext that you're not a reliable narrator of your own symptoms, and there is no evidence you can present to disprove the accusation of "hysteria" or "anxiety".
I'm not saying that stress doesn't have effects, but I think a diagnosis based on "stress" can often be reductive; who doesn't feel some stress throughout the day?
So is IBS. I am not sure its fair to expect precise diagnosis for a nebulous "disease".
Those hormones change things in your body, like redirect the blood in your body contracting or extending blood vessels.
>who doesn't feel some stress throughout the day?
It is a quantity thing, you can feel stressed during seconds, or during hours or during entire days.
For example, in a war when your family members could die at any moment, you feel stress for days. In you live in peace you just don't have an idea what that means.
I have not lived war myself but I had close contact with people in Ukraine and in the past conflicts like Congo or Central Africa Republic and other African wars.
Stress effects were obvious for people living in farms. Animals like hens can stop laying eggs or cows stop giving milk just by stress alone.
Like, it's not a good excuse, don't get me wrong, but as much as I try, I simply cannot keep up with the entire state of the art of computer science. I wish I could, and a younger me without a family and responsibilities actually would mostly keep up with everything, but now it just feels like there's never quite enough time to learn everything I really should.
I do try and keep up, I have a million textbooks and the like, and I try and at least go through the example problems for them, but it's pretty easy to fall behind in that stuff.
While a GP should keep up to date with ulcer research, and "I'm busy!" isn't a great excuse when serious pain and/or lives are on the line, but it's something I at least understand better now.
This is the part of this conversation that I don't get. Yes, it is impossible for one person to contain the entire body of knowledge, which means you're not going to know some of the time, and that might be embarrassing or otherwise troublesome.
However... it should be rare that you operate in complete isolation. You should be regularly interacting with other practitioners, including people whose entry into the field is newer, and therefore should be aware of the current state of the art. There should be interactions where that information is shared, both allowing projects you work on to take advantage of advances in the state of the art even if you don't know about it, and for you to become aware of advances in the state of the art.
“Doctor”
I believe that my ulcer was caused by daily doses of the antibiotic Tetracycline which the family Dermatologist prescribed for acne. Once I stopped taking it, my symptoms were gone.
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Robin-Warren
> It defied the conventional wisdom that bacteria could not survive in the highly acidic environment of the stomach, and many scientists dismissed his reports.
There is some point in the process where those "many scientists" should have been prevented from doing any further peer reviews, at the very least. If you always say No, your opinion has no value.
Other possible explanations found in the literature are at least: small intestine bacterial overgrowth; dysbiosis of the esophagus; food intolerances; postural problems; incorrectly (for some reason) functioning LES (or other related) muscle etc.
It's possible that all of these contribute a little bit to GERD and whether you get problems depends in all of these factors in some non-trivial way.
It's possible that they are all true, though, and GERD can either result from multiple different causes or from a sum of different causes. If that's the case, we would need better diagnostics to figure out what is causing each individuals problems in particular.
But in practice it turned out to be more complicated than the narrative; X is still somewhat true and ulcers and gastric disorders are both caused by, and affected by, multiple factors. Certainly, stress can exacerbate an existing latent ulcer or gastric disorder, making many people attribute the cause to stress, but this quickly gets into "proximal causes" and "ultimate causes".
As for working with doctors who didn't get the memo, I've learned that you sort of have to sneak up new information to them without making them feel challenged by a non-expert. It's a form of social engineering.
Basically you want to avoid directly confronting them by implying they are dumb or wrong. Instead, appeal to authority, but in a soft way, and downplay the confidence of the new result.
I had many years of being undiplomatic until I saw a video of Kevin mitnick. His normal nature was quite undiplomatic and fairly autistic, but when he did social engineering, he did an amazing job of telling people what they wanted to hear. Now, when I think something, instead of stating it in a clear and undiplomatic way, I rewrite it in a way that my mental model suggests increases the probability the listeners will change their minds and agree with me. This took a great deal of practice to be able to do in real time.
Point being: Offer your idea during a friendly time where it will not cause the other person to be defensive and then you have to wait. You might find that the next time you bring it up the person is more receptive.
that might apply to you (depending on your background), but Warren had some serious credentials. Doctors are supposed to stay current on work like his.
“Man, we find your problem”
Fortunately, the Canadian medical system knew about Dr Warren’s work and so I was properly treated with antibiotics and completely cleared up in 2 weeks, never had a recurrence.
I owe that guy a lot, I’ve heard many horror stories about ulcer treatments since then, it’s shocking this isn’t known by literally 100% of doctors (of all specialties)
Now say: “Surely by now everybody knows about SQL injection!”
Meanwhile it’s the third item in the OWASP top ten: https://owasp.org/Top10/A03_2021-Injection/
Now that you know how ignorant supposed experts can be in a highly paid intellectual profession, extrapolate to every other field of study and weep.
After an endoscopy and a biopsy, they found that I had H. Pylori and stomach inflammation (no ulcers). After a vaccine + course of antibiotics, I stopped feeling pain whenever I was hungry and started feeling a normal appetite sensation.
I'm posting this comment in case anyone is in the same situation with hunger pain.
Anyway, the term that was used to describe the resistance to Warren and Marshall's resesarch was "the Acid Mafia."
Barry Marshall realized that some of the patients that Robin Warren was telling him about were his own patients. He had learned fiberoptic endoscopy, and he was performing biopsies on these same patients and knew their medical histories. So this clinical connection lit a spark, and the two of them teamed up and made a remarkable discovery. What they did was to simply correlate this finding with the presence of active chronic gastritis. They published their first paper, a brief letter to the editor in Lancet in 1983t, which described a series of their patients with active gastritis and the present of this curved bacillus in their stomachs.
They went on then to make further correlations between the curved bacilli and peptic ulcers and eventually gastric cancer. This discovery was innovative and totally new. and was met with huge resistance by the medical establishment. The notion that peptic ulcer was an infectious disease met with near universal rejection. I actually remember the journal club in a Boston teaching hospital near here where this was first presented. The discovery was universally rejected by most of us in attendance. The problem was that in certain parts of the world, 80% of the population were infected. How could something that common be a cause of a disease like peptic ulcer that only occurs in, say, 1% of the population?
Barry Marshall wrote in his note cards and some of his later publication “Everyone was against me, but I knew I was right.”
So who was against him? The acid mafia, a powerful group of senior investigators who championed the idea that hydrochloric acid was the key to formation of stomach ulcers. When we were residents and fellows we had to know a lot about gastric hydrochloric acid secretion. So those who believed in the primacy of stomach acid were definitely strongly opposed to these Australian upstarts, Marshall and Warren. (https://archive.blogs.harvard.edu/lamont/2020/01/30/advances...)
Another pattern that came up in these discoveries was the doctors and researchers experimenting on themselves. For example:
In this instance the experimental subject was Barry Marshall himself. He swallowed a pure culture of Helicobacter pylori that he had isolated from one of his patients that he had previously biopsied and cured. So he knew that the strain was treatable and curable. He drank the culture of H pylori and over the next several weeks developed severe acute Helicobacter infection with nausea, vomiting, and severe dyspepsia. He stated that his halitosis was so bad, that his wife told him that he had to sleep on the couch. After the infection was established he treated himself with the anti-Helicobacter therapy and completely recovered. His experiment was soon published in the Medical Journal of Australia in 1985.
Basil Hirschowitz, the godfather of endoscopy, also followed the self-experimentation path:
Hirschowitz heard about [the fiber optic] paper from a cardiology resident who had heard about it at journal club in London. Hirschowitz flew to London, met Kapany and Hopkins in a pub, and discussed their invention. They were very encouraging to Hirschowitz and gave him a few glass fibers to take back to Ann Arbor. Hirschowitz returned to his fellowship at Michigan and built the first fiberoptic gastroscope with help from Larry Curtis and Wilbur Peters who were physicists. After a few years of trial and error, they produced the first gastroscope ... Like a lot of fellows and young researchers in science, first tested the device on himself in February 1957. He managed to control his own gag reflex, passed through his esophagus and looked around in his own stomach.
https://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ben/cpd/2020/00000026...
After a gastroscopy, they concluded that it was just stress and nothing else, but inflamation wouldn't heal on its own, so I got pantoprazole (PPI) and stopped ingesting potentially irritating food (caffeine, alcohol, spicy food). I also shortly changed jobs, which alleviated the stress. Mind you, I never had heartburn, just pain. My condition didn't improve for a while after that, until I stopped drinking carbonated water (the only carbonated beverage I consumed), that fixed it in less than a month. After that, I gradually weaned myself off of pantoprazol in 6 months.
There literally was no other probable cause except for stress (I was stressed, wholly self-induced), and after I switched industries and no longer felt that I'm wasting my time working for peanuts, the PPIs helped cure the symptoms.
https://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ben/cmm/2008/00000008...