Big Tech says AI is booming. Wall Street is starting to see a bubble
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I hesitate to make comparisons, but I think of it like VR. For a hot minute, VR was supposed to be the future. We were all going to live our lives in VR. Zuckerberg goes all in. Turns out that's not happening anytime soon, but does that mean VR is a sham? No, it's actually really cool, and it'll keep getting better, but that doesn't mean we're going to spend 8-16 hours a day with a helmet on. That was just a bad prediction, and doesn't reflect on the technology or its value. Same with AI.
The stock market has boom and bust cycles even with companies using 100 year old technologies! With an embryonic but all-promising technology like AI: it will pop then reinflate many times over. And this is fine.
It's on the person saying it's a bubble to quantify it.
Sometimes (most of the time) you bet wrong or just don't win on some new technology you think is important.
But, while fast followers can sometimes get there, you mostly have to place a meaningful bet even if the outcome is hardly pre-ordained.
You might see some speculators do better than the index fund investors, but you also might be ignoring all the ones that did terrible.
But we are so early in the LLM era. Hell, Slack hasn’t even added an LLM for chat histories, which is something I desperately want. AI agents are just starting. Scaling law hasn’t stopped.
There are a ton of use cases where I think LLMs are extremely helpful but we are bottlenecked by inference speeds and context size. Both of which are rapidly improving. There will come a break point where models are cheap, capable, and fast. We are not there yet. It’s really freaking early.
Expecting AI companies to generate massive amounts of revenue now is silly. Most of them will fail. But some of them will be absolutely gigantic.
I expect companies who integrate well with them to increase their value. For example, companies with proprietary data to integrate an LLM with. Another example could be a company that develops very capable agents.
Wallstreet cares about stocks. If models reach a point where it’s cheap, capable, and fast, why wouldn’t the S&P500 take off because of the huge boost to productivity? And some companies will take off more. That’s normal.
These shovel maker comments get tossed around a lot in any AI "bubble" talk. Yet, the shovel makers did not even come close to being the most profitable from the dotcom boom.
Others have developed Deep Learning based weather forecast models which much cheaper (orders of magnitude less compute), faster and more accurate than conventional physics simulation based models which costs billions of dollar to run.
There might exists companies which have already enough private, unique and valuable data that if used to develop models that can bring huge benefits.
The money is in the applications and inventions that build on top of models.
> I think we are no where close to peak bubble.
That said, you're in agreement with the analysts:
“Despite its expensive price tag, the technology is nowhere near where it needs to be in order to be useful,”
Anyway, the issue (I see) is that the value added by these features is marginal and does not make up for the huge amount of investment. Please, as a thought experiment, how exactly is adding LLMs to the chat history would make up for Slack's investments in LLMs? Would it enable it to gain so much more market share that investors would get a good return? What if models become so cheap and capable that everyone has LLMs for their chat history? What then? Where will the return of investment come from?
But we're talking about different things here. I'm referring to the business value of a company investing in AI features and their return on investment. The end-user is a different story, but anecdotally, I also pay for a few subscriptions to AI services and so far I'm not seeing significant productivity gains after the novelty wore off. For me it's at the point of being just a better search that I need to cross-reference to make sure it didn't go off the rails. I will stop paying soon.
So quantify it, how many dollars richer did you get thanks to AI? Did you get a massive raise? Did you create a new product that made you tons of money? Since you say it is possible to quantify please tell us!
Edit: Ah, you are selling AI products, that doesn't count. That is saying a shovel is great value since you can sell it.
Why would someone selling fridges be motivated to exaggerate the value of stoves?
I'm not selling anything as Pollinations.AI is open source and makes no profit.
Just because I'm working with open-source AI means I cannot have an opinion on how other AI tools have improved my productivity?
Then there's the legal issue. People are not going to accept the idea of "you can't sue me, the AI decided", and so a not perfect model is not going to be deployed in any field of consequence, because the idea that you can offload liability on models is not going to fly, and is ethically reprehensible in my view and in the view of most serious people working in regulated industries. It actually introduces new legal issues, a jury is far less likely to side with an AI than it is with a person who simply made a mistake. There are numerous social reasons why the liability concerns here are legitimate and concerning and actually different for companies than if a human had been making the decisions.
Therefore, the models have to be perfect, or they have to be checked by hand by experts at every step (in which case, there is no return on investment, you haven't really automated anything).
That's the classic conundrum of "I may as well have done it myself given I had to check that code line by line anyway" I see in my own work, and the same is going to apply for non-perfect models in any field of sufficient consequence that there is a hope for profitability (and usually, these fields being consequential enough for potential profitability also implies a potential for liability).
Anybody that works as a programmer in finance/energy/healthcare/government or other parts of the "real economy" could tell you this years ago. The perception that AI could be used to automate significant work was dead pretty shortly after arrival. The only industry that continues on with the charade is the industry with a vested interest in selling and making dubious promises about AI products.
That doesn't mean I don't think LLMs are cool or that they are totally useless. For endeavours that were limited in their profitability anyway, it may very well have some use cases. I just don't see a viable business model for any large companies except Nvidia or AMD or Broadcom and others making money selling data center equipment. Maybe ads and agitprop, but that seems to be a sort of parasitic relationship going on with social media and the internet and one wonders how long it can continue before canabalizing itself.
There is a question of what is even a bubble. John Cochrane did a study that showed that the value of Amazon alone justified tech stock index valuation even in 1999.
What is a "bubble" even? For me it would be self-driven cycle of upward valuation whose fundamental value never justifies the market cap in it. An industry that rises in price just a few years later to meet and then far exceed the previous valuation does not need to be a bubble. A bubble is not just a high valuation that decreases in price sometime in the future.
I'm not convinced it will happen either. Venture Capital operates on a business model that is really hard for human intuition to deal with. 1/1000 success rates require so few break out successes that, yes -- they can fund an entire sector that will, with extremely high probability, fail and still be profitable.
For each Amazon that was undervalued there were 100s of companies with stupid ideas and no revenue.
You're free to redefine words, but then a lot of people will disagree with you.
As to Cochrane, even if the value of Amazon is argued to have justified the tech sector valuation, the fact was that the tech sector valuation was not all, or even mostly, concentrated in amazon, which is why it was a bubble.
But we’re not peak AI yet in my opinion. Companies aren’t IPOing at dizzying valuations with just an idea and a few html developers.
The vast majority of the AI boom is centered around companies that were successful before the boom. Apple. Nvidia. Microsoft. TSMC. Google.
Where we will see returns on LLMs and where we will see useful applications aren't in AI companies, they will be in established players integrating these tools into their existing platforms. This isn't like past tech advances that have led to widespread disruption as established players failed to keep up. For one thing, the established players are quite obviously determined to keep up this time and are jumping on LLMs if anything faster than it's worth.
For another, it's not obvious to me that AI by itself can be a product. AI solutions need data to be useful, and the only people who have the data needed to solve the problems that exist that exist in sector Y is the established players.
So yes, I think there's a bubble, and it's going to pop. But that doesn't mean we won't see advances in the tools.
Github with copilot is a good example of what I'm talking about—new companies trying to be the software development LLM company don't really stand a chance of beating out GitHub. The same dynamic is playing out in every industry right now, and companies that are founded to be the AI solution for a given industry will not unseat the established players.
We're in dial-up days of AI but investors are ignoring the reality that it's still way too early to know what it will ultimately look like and what customers will want to pay for. But FOMO rules.
If you think AI uses a lot of energy now, just wait until there’s commercially successful use-cases.
On the other hand it’s also no different from any other production process in our economy. Just newer. Why improve steel production if that’s just going to lead to more steel consumption?
If you didn’t want to maximize paperclips maybe it was/is a mistake to build our economy around paperclip maximizers.
When it pops, it will still be bigger than in 2024.
We bought it, were all very excited about it, but in reality it's complete garbage. Their LLM is slow, hallucinates stuff, and never seems to find the answers you're looking for. It's like they take the top two search results and pipe them with no context into GPT-3.
It's a shame because my home-brew email Q&A bot is extremely useful. I could integrate Slack but unfortunately you can't access DMs through the API which hampers it a bit
Small models are really good now. Mistral Large Enough 123 billion parameter model is competitive against GPT4, which is rumored to be 1.7 trillion parameters.
Context sizes are also rapidly improving, as is inference hardware.
There will be a convergence of model intelligence, context size, inference hardware, and developer experience at some point.
One of these days, Slack AI will be good.
In other words, it's an LLM.
IMO the best of uses of AI will be smart RAG-ish stuff integrated into existing products.
Like your slack example: imagine the fact-checking possibilities! Imagine a snarky message from a manager saying “you said this would be finished by Friday”. All you have to do is ask slack “is this message true?” And it’ll go and find the 15 messages where you made it very clear the feature would not be finished by Friday.
I’m also really excited for more AI docs. Prisma (a typescript ORM) has an incredibly useful AI on their docs page. You can ask it anything about prisma, and it’ll provide a pretty thorough, hallucination-free answer, with links to all of the relevant doc pages and GitHub issues.
Imagine if google’s most black-box API’s could be explained and navigated for you by an AI. A dream come true
An idea from macro investing [1] that has stuck with me: don't overindex on the last crisis (or watershed moment more generally). All throughout the 2010s a lot of investors were implicitly assuming that if another crisis hit, it would look like 2008. The 2020 crisis proved to unfold in a very different ways than 2008, at least in terms of where you were best off putting your money.
Which brings me back to the Khosla quote from the start of this comment. A lot of people seem to be overindexing on the dot-com boom, assuming that this AI summer will pan out the same way.
I am not making a directional call here. All I'm suggesting is to stay humble about this trite yet profound truth: the future often unfolds in unexpected ways.
[1] Shout out to The Macro Tourist
That's a good way to look at it. Many of the companies throwing money at AI are going to lose money. For two reasons: 1) it doesn't work well enough yet, and 2) it's getting cheaper, so more people can do it. Most infrastructure stuff ends up as a low-margin business.
Look at AI-guided autonomous vehicles. First demo, 1980s. First major successes, around 2005. First successful commercial use, around 2023. Profitability, ?. Probably half a century from demo to profitability.
Looking at the bigger picture, then, it seems like most of the efforts that companies are pouring into AI research generally won't put them that far ahead.
Does Phi 3 even do vision?
Everytime something becomes popular there is always the ‘you got a hammer so now everything is a nail’ problem. Eventually the trend filters out the non sense applications and only the really important and impactful applications stick around.
Humans never change. Neither in stock markets nor otherwise. Everyone falls for the same things again and again.
Would you say that in 1999 that search engines are easily commoditized and have no money in them?
LLM has been vastly oversold to the general public as "AI" when the technology is nowhere near that. We haven't invented turing complete robots that independently identify problems, learn the solutions, and respond. LLM as a technology might not ever be able to do that, by the nature of how it works. We have only created chatbots that reply to prompts, with a higher than acceptable inaccuracy rate. And yet this justifies $7tn.
But silicon valley figured out that saying "AIAI" on repeat works for funding, then other companies started pretending they were the same for the instant stock gain. Rising interest rates and this wave led everyone to pull out of other companies and dump into anything vaguely related to AI. They rode the price up, and now that interest rates are falling (making other companies more attractive) they are rotating out.
This probably didn't become a full on bubble like crypto did because interest rates were high. It's still a bubble, but seems to be pricking of its own accord as opposed to becoming a gigantic, systemic problem.
That said, when rates fall again, we might see a second boom there. Or maybe another fad will strike silicon valley, to continue the trend.
VR - Crypto - Metaverse - LLM?
There also needs to be discussion if the transformations AI can make possible are actually for the common good. They'll certainly be good for a small minority (e.g. certain billionaires), but its hype-men seem to be lazily gesturing to utopian sci-fi and lazy and oversimple economic thinking to justify it [1].
But it's probably hopeless, since SV is a technopoly and has too much influence.
[1] Like assuming there will always be work for all people in the face of automation, that people will be better off if goods get cheaper as their economic prospects dim, etc.
From a cashflow perspective however it is no where near close to capturing its economic benefit, and to be fair to the bubble supporters I agree that I can't see how it can capture this in the short term. In the long term its pretty clear that there will be some major winners here who will reap big rewards.
It’ll be the same with AI, probably the productivity gains won’t return quickly enough for the current rounds of investment, but on a long enough time line it will absolutely be well-placed hype.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/big-tech-says-ai-is-...
Text-only:
https://assets.msn.com/content/view/v2/Detail/en-in/BB1qxJH0
Or are you saying that AI will create a lot of demand for workforce? And how so?
Look up the unintentional impact of the cotton gin for an example.
It will only hurt industries with limited demand or fixed amount of work (think bookkeepers, customer support) that are cost centers.
IF an LLM could ingest news and summarize headlines every day some jobs might gain help, but so far next to nothing is there. Some have tried for stocks and does not went anywhere, some others have tried to replace call center operators with horrific mean results and so on.
Actually I fail to see much else except producing quick graphics for publishers and porn deepfakes for teenagers. At a certain point in time things might mature enough for something else, but so far...
To the point I think I am the exception, and that's why LLM will have a larger impact than I would estimate.
And, as you say, Google provides links to better answers in 2 seconds.
I suppose some people like the interaction with the machine. I'm much more exhausted after an LLM session and my brain is literally fried until the next morning. I stopped using LLMs and am much happier.
Googling for answers and reading them strangely enough energizes me.
If that's the current bar well, LLMs cost way too much for the results they produce. Of course things change so at a certain point in future we might get much better results and to achieve such goals research, so data, experiments etc is needed but from research and release early and often vs "Artificial Intelligence is here" from PR there is a big gap in the middle.
And talking about benefits, would you claim that life 50 years ago was the same for the average citizen as today? Because if not, to me it seems that people work less (see chart) for more (see what you have).
This [2] site has a plethora of data about the inflection of basically everything that happened in 1971. 1971 was when the US defaulted on its agreements under Bretton Woods, enabling it to begin printing money at its own discretion, which is essentially when our current economic era began. Vast amounts of wealth has been generated, but it has come with costs.
[1] - https://www.statista.com/statistics/242022/number-of-single-...
What I started to notice, and I think some people on HN have noticed already before me, is that producing lines of code is faster. Much faster, even, if examples are already in the knowledge base. This means that "rolling your own" has never been easier. So, we end up with the same solution, replicated many times in the code.
So, now, programmers are producing code faster than reviewers can review. Even the authors of this GPT assisted pile of code may not read or even fully understand it.
I think the critical thing missing is code duplication detection. I know some tools are available but I have yet to see one that does its job satisfactorilly. If, however, that does not get built in soon, then companies will start to see that AI causes people to produce lots of unmaintainable/duplicated content and will start to turn away.