Why Discover is no American Express | Hacker News Reader

Why Discover is no American Express

popularfintech.com

156 pointskazanins289 comments

One thing not discussed is the relationship between AmEx's big purchases and its fees. American Express puts a lot of effort into keeping its paying consumers happy because they are both American Express customers (because they pay fees) and because customers really want to use American Express cards at merchants (and so American Express can charge those merchants higher fees).

I'll give you an example. Years ago, I bought a fancy sofa online. The merchant sent periodic "don't worry, we're just behind schedule" every week or so for months, and then sent one last email saying they had declared bankruptcy. I was way out of my chargeback window, but when I called American Express, they instantly refunded me my purchase anyway. That experience meant that, if I ever make another big purchase online, I will go out of my way to use an American Express card, including switching merchants if necessary.

Keeping customers who make big purchases happy costs money, both in losses and in administrative overhead, but it pays out on both the customer and merchant side in the long run.

AmEx was my first card, and I've stuck with them. Despite some decline, their customer service is still top-notch. I always put major purchases on there.

Their Platinum travel insurance has been a lifesaver. When a volcano stranded us, AmEx covered our stay at the TWA hotel in JFK. Lost luggage? They reimbursed $400 in clothes, no questions asked. Disputes? I haven't had many but they were always resolved in my favor.

I experimented with having a Chase card when they launched the Reserve. Europcar defrauded me, and Chase wouldn't even let me file a dispute. I eventually won by sending a written complaint (FCBA), but I ditched the card right after. Plenty of reports online suggest Chase discourages disputes heavily.

My experience with Chase chargebacks has been stellar. I have the sapphire preferred card, and the Amazon card.

I use the sapphire preferred card for almost everything, it is my “daily driver”. I never touch my Amazon card, but I have it tied to my Amazon account, and it gives 5% off. Anyone who spends serious money at Amazon should have it just for that benefit alone.

Anyway, a couple of years ago I noticed that it felt like I was paying more on my credit card, and had been for awhile. I wasn’t really paying very close attention to my finances unless something “felt off”.

Well, something felt off, and when I investigated, I saw that there were hundreds of Amazon purchases that I hadn’t made, going back almost 2 years.

Because all my Amazon purchases go through my Amazon chase card, and because I make so many purchases on Amazon, when I see AMAZON on my credit card statement my eye just skips over it.

Well, I noticed a purchase that didn’t line up, and when I investigated, I saw that it was also on the wrong credit card, it was on my sapphire card and not the Amazon card.

Using the tools to dump your entire purchase history to CSV, it was easy to find all of the fraudulent purchases, because they all used the wrong card.

The purchases stretched back over 2 years, for a total price of almost $30,000. It was sort of a perfect storm of me ordering lots of stuff on Amazon, not really looking at Amazon fees on my credit card listings, and doing a couple of remodels during this time so funneling large amounts through Amazon and Home Depot were not out of the norm.

I thought I was screwed when I saw that it had gone on for more than 2 years and 30k, but when I called up Chase they took care of it almost instantly. I was amazed. They definitely earned a loyal customer that day.

Zipcar charged me for getting a parking ticket. The ticket was given for returning/parking the car in the “only Zipcars can park here” reserved spot on the street. The problem was that Zipcar had not applied the Zipcar sticker to their own car, so it didn’t appear to be a Zipcar to the parking attendant. Yes, tl;dr Zipcar charged me for parking the car in the spot they directed me to return the car to. Chase decided the CSP chargeback in Zipcar’s favor.

Yeah Chase sucks for chargebacks.

My wife passed away and made a recurring membership-type charge using my credit card. The merchant won't let me cancel without a court order, which is difficult because the estate is closed. Chase told me to go fuck off until they re-bill me, but won't prevent that from happening, and resolved my dispute in the merchants favor.

I ended up using public shaming to get the desired outcome.

Sorry for your loss re: your wife

Hmm, nice story, but what is the total amount of annual fees that you have paid to AmEx? I guess much more than hotel and magical free 400 USD.

At least on the US platinum card, the various complimentary credits mostly cover the annual fee. If you're already paying for streaming services, the occasional Uber, etc. then the annual fee disappears.

My problem with Chase: they stopped integrating with bill pay so I couldn’t automatically pay off the balance. It was always manual.

I talked to customer service and that was a unique experience. After about trying to blame me for 99% of the call, they finally admitted it was a feature.

Tangent but this makes me feel sad at the customer service I lost when first republic went tits up. Ugh. They were just like this and the best customer service I've ever had with a bank

I’m not good at English where does the phrase tits up originate from? If that’s not rude to ask :)

https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/227589/what-is-o...

As a Britisher I did not know the origin before, thank you. But, "pear-shaped" originated within my own lifetime? This has blown my mind as I cannot remember a time before this phrase existed and it seems eternal.

I'm not sure where it comes from just that it's a mildly humorous way of saying something completely failed.

Never think it's rude to ask though! :)

Here's a challenge for you, inspired by real life: contact Chase's legal department.

Usually suing in small claims court will work, somewhat. Sometimes.

That’s a lot more work than calling customer service.

With how long you have to stay on hold these days, I'm honestly not sure it is. You can file small claims completely online with a simple text form (at least in my country) and any response will always be in writing.

Don’t most credit cards require arbitration these days?

Then they can spend the $400/hr on a lawyer to draft a response to the small claims court request that the consumer should refile with the AAA. Then the consumer could send a reply, and they another $400/hr lawyer will have to reply to the reply. And then...

The lawyer is getting paid whether you file something or not. They're employees of the company. I think they care less about their cost to their employer and more about wasting their time on petty stuff (when they could be doing important stuff).

It's a difference that doesn't change the outcome for the sort of thing you're responding to here, but certainly a difference that matters in other circumstances.

For example, Disney will gladly spend far more fighting someone selling counterfeit Disney shirts out of the boot of his car than any profits from sales they'd lose to that counterfeiter. But if they don't fight him, they lose their trademark.

I hope you looked very closely at the contract that bore the arbitration clause.

Scroll down to the spot where it explains who will pay all the attorneys fees. Oh no! Your clever plan failed.

I think arbitration is an affirmative defense, e.g. if you file a suit they still have to file something to say you're doing it wrong o_O

What you describe works a lot like insurance from the customer's point of view.

Normally for insurance the suggestion is that you should 'self-insure' smaller risks, and only purchase third-party insurance for catastrophic risks. The theory being that insurance has extra overheads and on average has to cost you more money than you get out. But that for catastrophic risks, you can't rely on averages.

(Of course, that only applies in the absence of tax or regulatory arbitrage. Eg I hear in the US your employer can buy health insurance from pre-tax money, but you'd have to use post-tax money for paying out-of-pocket.)

Similar for a company like AmEx you have to weigh whether the occasional wins you describe are worth the constant drain. Or whether you should just put the winnings in a piggy bank, and use a small part of that to finance the replacement for the never-arriving fancy new sofa.

Credit cards let you externalize the cost, since merchants raise their prices to account for credit card fees, but raise their prices for everyone, not just credit card users. In other words, the cost of better consumer protections from credit cards is subsidised by those not using credit cards (and those who carry a CC balance and pay interest, but that's another matter).

Alternatively, maybe practically everyone uses credit cards, so the "subsidy" is negligible, and everyone loses slightly on average. But then you'd lose even more if you didn't use a credit card and subsidised everyone else.

It's basically a big version of the Prisoner's Dilemma.

You are right up to a point: but this analysis doesn't (fully) apply to American Express, exactly because it has such limited acceptance.

I mostly don't shop at places that accept American Express, exactly because their prices are higher to pay for this cross-subsidy. Thus I don't pay for this cross subsidy.

Merchants can give cash discounts; many do. And there are also expenses to handling cash that credit cards eliminate: for instance, such as the need to securely transport large amounts of cash to and from a bank, the need to count the cash, and the extra labor of cashiers making change—a skill that many cashiers are simply borderline incapable of these days anyway.

I was about to say "hey, in most US states what you're saying is illegal" and realized I was letting that myth live in my head as if it were true.

So, to be clear for anyone else with the same problem I had:

Merchants in all US states can legally give cash discounts.

In Connecticut and Massachusetts, it's illegal to add a surcharge for credit purchases.

Yes, but it's not a pure dilemma between American Express and cash. There are other ways to pay without cash and without American Express.

I see a few explicit discounts (or surcharges) for different payment methods here and there, but mostly the system works by segregation: the cheaper suppliers with lower margins don't tend to accept the more expensive payment providers.

> US your employer can buy health insurance from pre-tax money, but you'd have to use post-tax money for paying out-of-pocket.

Ya, what’s up with that? It is totally true, but I’ve never been able to figure out why it’s true like that, given its huge unfairness. Is it just punishing people who get laid off from their job and have to go on Cobra? Likewise, are independent contractors just SOL?

There was a time in US history, starting somewhere around WW2, where maximum marginal income taxes were crazy high (like 90%) and you had other wage controls in place at various times.

These high income taxes were politically popular, but companies still wanted to compete for workers. So they found all kinds of loopholes for extra benefits they could give employees at a lower tax rate (or at no taxes at all). Sometimes they even lobbied for those loopholes, too.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_insurance_in_the_United... for a brief overview, and perhaps follow references from there.

It had nothing to do with tax rates and everything to do with wage "controls" (i.e. caps) during WWII.

Employers were not allowed _by law_ to pay their employees competitive wages, so they offered benefits which weren't restricted.

Even after the war, this was still a benefit to employers: the cost of benefits paid by the employers could be deducted from their taxes, but employees didn't have to pay taxes on it (unlike wages), so it was more efficient; also, changing jobs meant changing health insurance plans, which complicated job switching for employees.

(BTW, the supposed "high tax rates" were paid by almost no one, in part because they only applied to the highest tax brackets but also because of numerous tax deductions.)

Yes, the high tax rates weren't meant to be paid. They were almost universally routed around via benefits and deductions.

Of course, both what you said and what I said still doesn't explain why benefits weren't taxed (or at least not as heavily).

Btw, I remember growing up in the 1990s in Germany that having a company car used to be a big deal as a perk. I don't hear about that as much anymore, I suspect it's because the relative tax attractiveness of benefits vs straight up cash changed over time; I remember some loopholes being tightened (if not closed).

If you don't carry a balance, then the only cost is if the card has an annual fee.

The protection that Amex has given me, when it comes to chargebacks for purchases that didn't work out has easily justified the annual fee.

And that's before any perks like miles or cashback or anything else.

> If you don't carry a balance, then the only cost is if the card has an annual fee.

You know that every time you use the card, American Express charges a fee?

All the perks and cashbacks etc come more or less out of that fee.

Of course, that fee doesn't show up directly on your bill. But you still pay ultimately it. (Just like you as an individual bear most of the brunt of a VAT, even if officially the shop hands the money to the government.)

> Of course, that fee doesn't show up directly on your bill. But you still pay ultimately it.

Unless I’m charged a lower cash price vs a higher credit card price, no, I’m not really ultimately paying it. You may be correct at a macro level but I’m looking at it from a practical standpoint.

When a merchant does charge a lower cash price, I make a real time judgement call to pay in cash or use card.

> Unless I’m charged a lower cash price vs a higher credit card price, no, I’m not really ultimately paying it. You may be correct at a macro level but I’m looking at it from a practical standpoint.

It's typically the more expensive merchants with higher margins who accept American Express.

So you are right that staying with the same merchant, you seldom get an explicit discount for not using American Express. The non-AmEx discount is more hidden, in the form of being able to shop at not-so-overpriced merchants.

Doesn't the merchant pay the fee? Never heard of shops having different prices for different credit cards or cash but maybe they should do that in order for card users to see the real cost of their credit cards.

Until that happens card users will not care

The consumer pays higher prices (since the merchant charges higher prices due to transaction costs), which is passed onto the network+banks via the merchant.

There’s an analogous situation with tariffs - it seems the manufacturer pays the cost of the tariffs since it is coming out of their bank accounts. But it’s actually consumers paying the tariffs.

You're right, then we should move to have different prices which show clearly the fees, I suspect a lot more people would go back to cash.

The problem is the govt wants to get rid of cash all together so I guess this will never happen

Not really true, depends on the marginal elasticity of demand whether the consumer vs. the retailer pays and how much. My wife owns a retail store, and she loves Amex customers, they’re usually the highest spenders and easiest to upsell. Having a surcharge for credit cards or Amex in particular would be counterproductive.

Well, and I assume those upsells probably have a higher margin for her. Ie effectively she's charging those Amex guys more.

That practice of continually saying "Just a little longer..." is also illegal [0] unless they gave you the option to cancel the order and receive a refund...but not that you care about the FTC if you're circling the drain.

[0] https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/resources/business-gui...

[1] https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/blog/2020/04/93-millio...

Huh, I wish I'd known about this. I tried to chargeback something from a scam company I mistakenly ordered electronics from who never delivered. I'd paid using a CashApp debit card, and when I disputed it they permabanned me from CashApp.

I’m not sure how this works in US, however certainly in UK, and I know of comparable experiences in several other countries, credit card companies are legally required to do this. It’s not a perk of AmEx, it’s a perk of using a Credit Card.

Specifically in UK, the credit card provider is jointly and severally liable for any breach of contract or misrepresentation by the vendor.

When I was working for Microsoft China, we had cases where a Chinese restaurant in Bellevue would go after Chinese coworkers visiting the states because ICBC AmEx didn’t offer the same fraud protection as an American or European sourced AmEx (then they would use the numbers somewhere else and create bogus charges). Countries have different rules and protections, and China puts the burden on the cardholder proving fraud took place (rather than the merchant that fraud didn’t take place).

I wonder if this helps explain WeChat’s popularity for payments

Credit cards in China never took off due to cost without the same safety guarantees. I did use UnionPay for most of my purchases back when I lived there, wepay didn’t support anyone without a Chinese identification card back then.

>> I was way out of my chargeback window

> I’m not sure how this works in US, however certainly in UK, and I know of comparable experiences in several other countries, credit card companies are legally required to do this. It’s not a perk of AmEx, it’s a perk of using a Credit Card.

I'm pretty certain this is not how it works in the UK, or anywhere else.

That's what the "chargeback window" is used for.

You are mistaken. In UK there is a six year window starting from when you receive, or when you should have received, the goods. Look up Section 75 protection.

Chargeback window is 120 days but that’s not what I’m referencing. A company going bankrupt and consequently not delivering is covered under Section 75, it’s a breach of contract.

Oh dear.

Not only are you wrong, I'm simply amazed you are unaware of Section 75. It's one the key advantages of using a credit card in Blighty.

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/section75-protect-...

EDIT: Not to mention, 'chargebacks' are at the the card companies discretion. Section 75 is enshrined in law, so they can't weasel out.

I had the exact opposite experience with them, and cancelled my card.

I returned something, and the company didn't credit the return. I rarely return things, and this was the only return I had ever had with amex. Amex asked if I had contacted the company, and I did, but following up was slow and involved tracing the package and verifying the signature. In the end the company didn't resolve it.

So then I contacted american express again and they did not process a chargeback. They said it took too long, even though I had done as they asked. I was really fed up with it, and disappointed because I thought they were different. So I could not in good conscience continue with them and cancelled my card.

(I've actually had lots more positive results from visa before and since)

Amex isn't very popular in my country but they meet a really good intersection between the old school white glove service and an easily usable hassle free modern service

> I was way out of my chargeback window

How many months, out of curiosity? The window for “goods and services not received” is surprisingly long (more than a year in some cases).

I also have similar AmEx stories where they took care of me on purchases that didn't go as planned. It will have paid for the annual fee, for many decades.

When I was a kid, I remember my parents used to try to pay for everything with their Discover card and would only use their Visa as a fallback. I was too young to understand the differences between credit cards at the time, but I remembered my parents always asking "do you take Discover?" everywhere we went. I never realized this wasn't just something only my parents did until I saw the Futurama joke about this years later: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-nSwKOVZyk

Fry: Do you take Visa? Cashier: Visa hasn't existed for 500 years Fry: American Express? Cashier: 600 years Fry: Discover? Cashier: Sorry, we don't take Discover

Great gag, and I'm still in my depths of that practice. Luckily, about 80%+ of the places I ask take Discover.

I clicked on the comment section ready to make this same reference. Such a good joke.

> Moreover, Discover cards come with no annual fees, while American Express keeps increasing its card fees with every card “refresh”.

Not all Amex cards have fees.

Also it would have been nice if the author went a little into the history like how Discover was once part of Sears. Not sure if this is still the case or not, but the classic Green, Gold, and Platinum cards are charge cards and have to be paid in full each month. Some of these things may explain why Amex is more affluent.

Discover also doesn't come with all the "perks" that Amex does.

Airport lounges, concierge, exclusive books on Michelin star restaurants (also via Tock acquisition), etc.

My Discover card has actually benefitted me more than my (entry -level) AMEX. Discover has 5% cashback categories every quarter, and most of them are for common charges. I've had the bonus on "gas" two or three times already. Also Amazon, grocery stores, paypal.

I find the mental overhead of tracking categories to be extremely irritating and I have just stopped using the discover card.

Write the category name on a piece of paper, tape said paper to the card.

Repeat every quarter.

There are at least two cards with useful quarterly bonus categories.

Exactly.

The overhead is no more than swapping out the cards in the wallet every 3 months and try to remember what the categories are. That's not even necessarily if you regularly use digital payments (and of course if the merchants support that).

(And I believe most people never hit that $1500 cap in specific category. If you do, like, spending $500 on restaurant/Amazon/Costco a month is like nothing to you, ignore everything I say)

I'd say the overhead is much much lower than things like "digital coupons" offered by grocery stores -- those are truly aimed at low income shoppers who are willing to spend time doing that.

I’ve got an Amazon Visa that gives me 5% back on Amazon purchases, 2% on gas and restaurants, and 1% on everything else. Rewards redeem on Amazon so effectively as good as cash.

Is this because the discover card is otherwise less ideal to use?

Lots of places don’t take it. Their fees are higher than Visa

Ironically, you're demonstrating why Amex has higher status or "perceived value." The stereotypical Discover cardholder is extra frugal, micromanaging small cashback percentages (and bragging about it), something the stereotypical Amex cardholder doesn't have time for. It's kind of the same way a cheap Holiday Inn will make a big deal about offering free breakfast while the Four Seasons, costing 10x as much, does not. Now, stereotypes may not be reality, but that's what 60 years of very effective marketing can do.

I've stayed away from AmEx cards specifically because of the level of micromanaging you need to get the expected value out of them. With something like the Chase Sapphire Reserve or Venture/Venture X, for contrast, the only thing you really need to keep in mind to get the face value of it is to book flights through their travel portal.

Yes, and that is Amex's selling point to merchants who are concerned that its fees are too high -- that it delivers exclusive, high-margin, free-spending customers rather than the other cards' value-oriented masses.

Funny enough, Amex Fine Hotels & Resorts (of which most Four Seasons properties are in) often includes free breakfast, late checkout, and a $100 credit alongside other perks.

I don’t know that I am a stereotypical Amex cardholder (member since 2012) but I certainly love perks like that and will always check for FHR listed hotels when booking travel.

AMEX uses perks like this to give you and ROI to get your spouse's approval for pay for the card.

Reality is that you want a couple of benefits, maybe airport lounge or late checkouts. That's not worth the Platinum card fee -- but if you are saving $25/month with Uber, getting your free Four Seasons breakfast, Hilton Diamond, Marriott Platinum, etc, suddenly you're making money by paying $1000 for a charge card. For me, I pay for a Hilton and Delta card. I basically end up with a completely $0 3-5 day getaway annually, with a value that is well above the baseline 2% cash back.

Other brands charge lower fees, but make you use captive portals for travel. Sometimes that hurts your earnings with the hotel and airline programs, which is meaningful to some folks. Personally, I find value in having airline and hotel "status" for preferred boarding and little perks.

Well I'd say you are definitely a stereotypical AmEx card holder.

My salary is decent enough compared to the general population (>$200k yr), so does my SO. But when we travel it never occur to us to check FHR -- those places are too expensive, and we didn't see value in those "perks".

Chances are that your income is much higher than mine, or at least you are much more willing to spend even at the same income level.

The Discover cash back perks went down quite a bit, at least from my perspective. The categories I used to use come on way less frequently now.

yup just easier to use my bofa card which is 2.625% on everything (due to platinum honors preferred rewards which is "easy" to obtain with some >100k in a brokerage account - could be equities, CDs, money market.. whatever)

Also your 401k and IRA count.

And they hard-capped the 5% categories so it's really just 1% plus a little.

Those 5% cashback categories only apply to the first $1500 spent that quarter. Basically if you were to regularly use your discover card you’d instantly hit the cashback cap within a week.

No, I've never hit the cap. I don't spend (for instance) >$1500 on gas in a 3 month period. And these are all purchases I'd be making anyways - why not put them on my Discover card for higher cashback than my "default" card?

> Not sure if this is still the case or not, but the classic Green, Gold, and Platinum cards are charge cards and have to be paid in full each month.

They changed this a few years ago with the "pay over time" feature on those cards.

My one changed from charge card to interest bearing - it is now 704.6% interest rate, so it is still a charge card!

What country is that in?

Not all charges can be PoT'd, though. In general you still have to pay the entire statement balance each billing cycle (it's a good habit to have when using credit cards anyway).

To add to this as well, this can be disabled, but it's on by default for new applicants. They can put a limit on the charge cards as well, so it can be almost an ambiguously limited credit card now. That said, I don't think being given a set limit is very common, or very impactful for the average person unless you're a large spender.

Pay over Time is only for "eligible" charges, not the entire balance.

I have yet to see a charge on my Amex Platinum that wasn't eligible for pay over time. In practice, I would say it's not different from another credit card at this point.

I believe each transaction has to be over $100 and there's a total limit on the number of pay over time plans you can have active. But yes, other than the dollar amount, I've not seen anything not be eligible.

Yeah, I read that Discover was created by Sears. It was also part of Morgan Stanley for a short period of time!

> in 2023, Amex cardholders (U.S. consumers only) spent, on average, $13,945 per year, or almost 4 times more than Discover cardholders

Honestly, not surprised. AXP/AMEX marketing team and superior customer service in the early days of the programs made it the top card to own amongst wealthy individuals.

The once coveted "black card" or Centurion product was invite only to existing card holders with the platinum card and met a certain annual spend criteria (some 6 figure amount). Card holders of this product paid some couple thousand dollar "initiation fee" and of course the annual fee. AXP got paid and then double dipped on the merchant side with even higher fees (the "no limit" cards charge a higher transaction fee).

Its exclusivity and hype has died down, especially when it started to issue centurion for businesses. Very easy to hit the required spend limit and use it as a weird flex at your next dinner party or restaurant outing with friends/family.

Honestly, if it wasn't for the centurion product. AXP would just be another credit card company and credit card network out in the wild (maybe it would have just been like "Diner's Club")

> use it as a weird flex at your next dinner party or restaurant outing with friends/family.

Went to a dinner with some of my gfs friends and her in NYC recently during my latest trip to the US (they work for Amex apparently). At the end of the dinner they suggested we all just pay separately because it is more simple. It confused me but I didn't mind. I understood it when the waiter held down a silverplate for us to put our credit cards on, and they pulled out their gold and platinum cards respectively, my gf also followed with her platinum card.

Then there was me, the only Europoorean at the table, and I put my regular card with a picture of a small kitten on the plate. The waiter complimented me on my card with a smile and I kinda cherish that. American flexes are weird to me, lol.

I don't really get it, except for the access to airport lounges with free food/drinks, if you do fly a lot.

> Then there was me, the only Europoorean at the table, and I put my regular card with a picture of a small kitten on the plate. The waiter complimented me on my card with a smile and I kinda cherish that. American flexes are weird to me, lol.

A true German would have put down cash, and seen that as a flex perhaps. (Or at least would have done so in the past. I haven't lived there in a while.)

Doing something out-of-context also reminds me how the English put each other firmly into their class system by their accents. So how / where you grew up will follow you around your whole life and colour your interactions.

However, if you come in with a foreign accent--say German-- that overrides this clue, so it's easier for you to interact with both working class and upper class people with less weirdness than the natives have to endure.

> A true German would have put down cash, and seen that as a flex perhaps. (Or at least would have done so in the past. I haven't lived there in a while.)

Things had changed quite a bit here. Card usage is now a default everywhere(including those pesky shops that used to put a "cash-only" signs).

Only hardcore grannies now use cash these days, but even I see a lot of oma/opa pulling out their Sparkasse cards at the counter.

Thanks!

I left the Vaterland in 2009, and I guess it shows how out-of-date I am. Even my sister says that my German has become old-fashioned.

Kitten? To me that’s an exquisite reverse flex.

“I see your ostentatious displays of status, and I counter with: a picture of something worth caring about.”

Yeah I usually pay cash everywhere but I found Americans get nervous (and may think you're a criminal) if you pay bills north of $100 in cash.

In Singapore, we even have a 10,000 Dollar bill as legal tender (about 7.5k USD at the moment), and nobody would think you are a criminal for using it.

Though these days people would think you a bit eccentric, perhaps.

During hyperinflation following WW1, we had a 100,000,000,000,000 (100 trillion) Mark bill in Germany. But I think it was only enough to buy some groceries or so.

https://www.presseportal.de/pm/14611/5469522

The Turkish cut 6 zeros of their currency in the mid 2000s.

I’m not sure what part you were confused about. Splitting charges is very common in the U.S. and has little to do with flexing your credit cards.

I suppose, but we were two couples. I usually pay for my gf, and in the case of a double-date, the other guy usually pays for his gf/wife.

I don't have the impression that splitting charges is more common in the US than the gentleman paying for his date. But I guess it does happen. Sometimes my GF insists on paying to even it out a little though.

Two couples = two cards (at most) in my experience. Some people are really particular about bills though. Did you split evenly or itemize the bills?

At least in my circles, unless it's like a first date, everyone is paying for their own meals. My girlfriend and I put receipts on the fridge and then reconcile them every so often.

This doesn't seem like a flex situation, as the Gold and Platinum aren't difficult to get and are extremely common. The gold in particular earns a large bonus on restaurant spending so I always pay with that, and it never crossed my mind that anyone would be impressed.

As for why, for me and a lot of people, it is the points/cash back. Since European fees are capped, there isn't much opportunity for credit cards to bribe customers with perks. I make about 4% back on my credit card spending and pay off my balance every month, so no interest payments. I imagine people living in NYC are probably making 6 figure incomes, so the amount of points/cashback would be a lot more than the annual fees. Then of course you also get lounge/hotel/ etc. benefits.

> card with a picture of a small kitten

and now I want to know which card...!

ING bank lets you design your own card. Upload a picture and they print it.

It could also be that they wanted the cash-back or rewards they get on those fancy cards.

>The once coveted "black card" or Centurion product

it even made it into pop culture, Ariana Grande's song 7 Rings has the lines

Black card is my business card The way it be settin' the tone for me I don't mean to brag, but I be like, "Put it in the bag,"

Kanye did it better (and 15 years earlier):

    I went to the malls and I balled too hard
    "Oh my god, is that a black card?"
    I turned around and replied,
    "Why yes – but I prefer the term African American Express"

there have been r&b songs about this card since late aughts to my knowledge, when it was still mythical

but yeah the US Amex platinum has most or better perks than the Centurion now

I wonder if the AMEX cards historically being "charge cards", which have to be paid in-full at the end of the month, encouraged healthy habits and better credit scores.

I credit my first AMEX with helping to keep my spending in-check when I started high-paying jobs because I always had in the back of my mind that the balance had to be paid-in-full. Take a lavish vacation? Make sure you have the savings to pay it off. In the end it was always paid off monthly.

> encouraged healthy habits and better credit scores.

Like you said, it required the habits or else they'd close your card, so it enforced better habits. Also the charge-cards don't impact your spending in your credit report, so it definitely helps the holder's credit score.

The charge cards don't even have to be paid in full anymore. They offer "pay over time" for charges on platinum/gold/green/etc which effectively makes them credit cards.

I worked on credit card processing at a Visa Level 1 merchant, 2001-2003. Amex was far more difficult to handle than any other type of card. 13 digits in a card number, 4-digit CVV, other weird problems that other card types didn't have. Small businesses dislike taking Amex because the per-transaction processing fees are bigger.

As a consumer who got in trouble during the 2008 depression, I will note that Discover is less forgiving, and quicker to sell your debt to debt collectors than any other bank.

My take is to avoid both as a consumer, if you can.

My dad worked at a hotel and he noticed that anytime Amex card holders did a charge back, even if their signature matched their ID, they'd always pull the funds, and the hotel would lose money.

We got Amex after that, since it means if we ever have a true theft/card skim issue, chances are high they will back us, instead of putting the debt on us. If that ever changes, I'll ditch them. The small shops might not take them, but every gas station does, and I rather not pump gas with my debit card.

Exactly.

Putting aside whether the points & benefits value are the best in the business anymore (I think they all got a lot worse post ZIRP)..

Amex gets the majority of my spend because they are cardholder friendly and easy to deal with. I never spend time in opaque phone trees, waiting for callbacks, on hold or having to argue/escalate any issue.

Their website is good, their phone support is good, and I feel protected using the card vs having to deal with some random issuer of a branded Visa / big dumb bank / etc.

Their support is so good. I’ve only called them a couple times, but each time it was like: “ring ring Hello Mr. Strauser, this is Joe at American Express, how may I help you?”

The time from hitting the call button to talking to a human with my account information in front of them sets the standard.

Just don't travel to Europe, you will struggle with amex here. Almost unknown at any selling point and as per what others post for good reasons.

Ironic, in that American Express (AMEX) traveler's cheques used to be (before credit cards were common) a nearly universal way for American tourists to carry cash when traveling anywhere in Europe, you could always exchange them for the local currency, and they would be replaced if lost/stolen.

Live in Germany, use Amex works at 60% of the time. Visa 80% of the time. Many businesses are cash only (less after Covid)

You use credit cards 140% of the time??

The dude LOVES credit. Sometimes he pays for something twice just to flex.

> don't travel to Europe, you will struggle with amex here

Depends on the country. Worked fine in Portugal, Italy, Norway and Britain. Less so in France and Germany—they have influential financial centres.

My experience in the EU with Amex:

Good coverage in London, UK but not as much as the US

only fancy restaurants in France/Spain

some small biz places in Venice, Italy but probably only because of the Venice Biennale was sponsored by Amex and their sales people did a push.

TL; DR If there is a large local banking lobby, Amex won’t work.

In the Uk and Ireland I have a >95% success rate with it. I was in Germany recently and had a 0% success rate.

Europe is a big place.

Are you trying to use it in tourist areas or not? It makes a big difference. My employer a few years ago was bought by a US company who switched the corporate cards from Visa to Amex, and after that, every business trip to Ireland from the US offices had someone needing to claim reimbursement for paying without the company approved card as the Amex got rejected at least once on each trip. We used to joke that it was an attempt to reduce the cost of expenses by annoying people with the paperwork when the Amex was inevitably declined.

In Ireland/UK nope, in Germany yes!

I keep a backup Visa card and actually 99% of the time Amex and some petty cash is still fine in my Western EU travels.

I live in Australia when I first signed up for a credit card through my bank they issued me with both a Mastercard and an American Express card linked to the same credit account. It seemed to me they really wanted to push Amex as they offered higher reward points etc for using it, the problem was almost nowhere accepted Amex whilst Mastercard "just worked" everywhere.

Eventually my bank cancelled the Amex card and they no longer offer American Express. I never really noticed because I hadn't used it for years at that point.

I've travel in Europe a bunch (CEE, Scandinavia, and UK) for work and pleasure and Amex has always worked for me. I can only think of a handful of times where I had to revert to my Visa instead.

not so in the UK, especially London. strong presence. they’re accepted even at local shops where they dropped their fees in order to encourage adoption.

Anecdotally, Discover took less than 10 minutes from dialtone to ending the call to return $1k back to my credit after having been hacked and texting "ACCEPT" at 4AM to an insane $ amount that I assumed was a bill.

Hack/Fraudulent charges are usually easy for cards to handle.

1. If you claim you’re calling for a fraudulent charge you’re almost always prioritized in customer service.

2. The algorithms they use have become pretty good at identifying fraudulent charges. In fact, the few times I’ve had fraudulent charges, each time my Chase/Amex card fraud departments reached out to me before I was even aware of the charges.

I've had a 100% successful chargeback rate with Amex, thus far.

I like that Amex chargeback is treated like (or is) an insurance policy on your card. So, you get successful chargebacks 100% of the time and typically within a day. They then investigate and try to claw back the refund you should have gotten or if they find that you tried to double-dip (service refunded and amex refunded) then you'll get charged again -- that will only happen if you're trying to commit fraud.

Where it shines is times where the merchants give you the run around. For instance, I put $500 down on a vehicle in a refundable deposit. When it came to cancel it, I was given the run around between dealerships and manufacturers, no one wanted to pay out. I made the effort (sent an email), and then clicked one button on the Amex website for the charge and got the money returned in a few hours.

I love Amex generally, but they are the sole card issuer who has outright denied charging a vendor back - or even blocking future transactions.

I had to close my account to get it to stop. Not even reissuing a new card helped due to the protocols vendors have now to do recurring billing over number changes.

Just a word of caution for an anyone taking this as gospel as I did.

Try charging back anything to do with a rental car. Pretty much all the card issuers, including Amex, will leave you high and dry.

why would you ever use a credit card if you have funds available for purchase on your debit card? especially for small purchases like gas, seems like an unnecessary way to build up debt.

EDIT: I was unaware of all the below listed advantages for using credit cards, especially about % cash-back opportunities, no idea if my bank also supports something alike. Anyway, thanks, I have to investigate/rethink how I pay from now on.

EDIT2: I just learned my country does not support cashbacks, not in any one of the banks.

You know how you get an 800+ credit rating? Put all of your normal expenses on your credit card and pay it off monthly. You only accrue interest on a card if you have a balance on it that carries over. If you pay it off every month you don't.

I almost never use my debit card. Its inherently more risky because it's directly connected to your checking account. A credit card isn't. If its compromised, it's much less damaging financially and easier to reverse.

> You know how you get an 800+ credit rating?

You can also game it by repeatedly running up large balances and then paying them down to zero right before the next reporting cycle.

still have to be careful about going over credit utilization...

Yes and no, high utilization dings your score for the month you made the big purchase but returns to normal once it's paid off. If you routinely have high utilization CCs will just increase your limit so your normal spending is in the ideal range.

Treat the credit card as a middleman between your actual cash (e.g., a checking account) and spending. Spend as if it's cash. Pay balance weekly to avoid ever paying interest. Enjoy far superior fraud protection, and an effective discount of roughly 1–10% depending on credit card perks.

>Pay balance weekly to avoid ever paying interest.

Perhaps counterintuitively, that is bad behaviour. If you pay before the billing cycle comes due, the banks will first insist you don't need a high credit limit and they will also insist you're a financial risk.

The best way to pay credit cards statements is to wait for the cycle to close and then pay the statement balance in full. You should only make a payment in the middle of a cycle if you need more room in your card's credit limit for an upcoming purchase(s).

>If you pay before the billing cycle comes due, the banks will first insist you don't need a high credit limit and they will also insist you're a financial risk.

Not my experience at all. I pay multiple times per credit cycle and have never had an issue getting CLIs. My total available LoC is a few of multiples of my annual income and the only reason I stopped asking for CLIs is because I got bored with it and had enough available credit that I basically never carry more than a 1-3% total balance even if I'm floating large purchases.

I'd go farther and suggest that this advice is potentially harmful with the recent changes to FICO scoring where balances have a rolling average impact -- having a balance hit your credit report because payment posted after your bank's reporting date will now follow you for considerably longer than in the past.

Discover and AmEx are pretty generous with CLI requests IME. I went through a period where they both seemed intent on being my highest LoC card and would often unilaterally extend a CLI after a CLI from the other hit my credit report. BoA is also fairly generous. Citi and Chase seem to extend more grounded credit lines. Wells Fargo is hilariously stingy.

The big thing with any of them is asking, though. None of them unilaterally offer CLIs very often IME.

All IME, YMMMV.

Do you need a very high limit? I pay every other week and my limit is already higher than my paycheck usually is, so I'm not sure what I'd use an even higher ones for?

Part of your credit score is the percentage utilization of your available credit. So you want higher limits that you'll never use in order to make that percentage smaller and thus your credit score higher.

Silly game but might as well play it.

Higher credit limits mean many good things:

* The bank is confident you will pay back your debts.

* Your credit utilization will be lower relatively speaking, which banks really like.

* You can put more spend on your card if and when you really need to.

It's always worth waiting for the billing cycle to close before paying the statement balance if it is practical to do so.

for the times when you actually want to put something on the card, like plane tickets and hotels

Never know when you're going to need to buy a car and drive to Mexico. :P

I have my cards on auto pay on due date. Works perfectly.

Oops. TIL I've been doing it wrong for years. Thank you for sharing this tip!

I do 99% of my daily spending on credit cards and have never once in 40 years paid interest on a credit card.

Buying something with a credit card does not mean you never pay it back.

I get an average of 2.5% cash back on all purchases made with my credit card. I pay the balance in full each month and have never paid an interest charge. Why on earth would I not take the free money?

On the surface it seems like we’re comparing two similar pieces of plastic that provide mechanisms for transferring cash from a purchaser to a vendor, but I think it’s more useful to think about the contract terms that you, the purchaser, agree to when you transact using one or the other.

For example, the ability to “claw back” funds transferred by credit card gives the purchaser much more confidence when dealing with an unknown vendor. Debit cards introduce more risk that funds can’t be recovered if the purchase has not been fulfilled or otherwise gone bad.

I only ever use my debit card for cash withdrawals, and I purchase exclusively on my credit card.

Why wouldn't I? My direct debit clears the balance every month so I never pay interest, and I enjoy a couple quid of cashback and better consumer protections.

It's really good to have a level of indirection between your purchases and the account where your hard-earned money sits.

If you have to dispute a charge it's much nicer to dispute it when it's on a credit card bill than when the money is already out of your bank account.

Think of it like a bastion host for your money.

If you are responsible and pay your statement in full each month, it’s free money. My particular Amex card gives me 5% cash back on gas and groceries and has no fees. This translates to ~$1,200 per year.

Which Amex card? The ones I've seen cap the total purchase amount for rewards for gas/groceries at a low enough level that the rewards max out at a few hundred a year. (Cash Magnet's cashback is universal and unlimited, but the 1.5% rate is less than Wells Fargo Active Cash's 2%.)

It's just called "Blue Cash", not "Blue Cash Everyday" or "Blue Cash Preferred". It seems like they don't offer it to new applicants anymore. The only downside is that you have to spend $6,500 before the 5% cash back kicks in for groceries/drug stores/gas stations, though I usually hit that in a couple of months anyways.

edit: more info here https://www.reddit.com/r/amex/comments/12r91y4/what_happened...

I had that card almost 20 years ago, until Amex abruptly closed both that and my "Student" Amex Blue that had very few benefits. Their letter referenced that "something on my credit report" and apparently the one forgotten payment I'd had recently, to Macy's for $60 (forgot I had used the card) was an unforgivable sin, surely portending a bankruptcy filing in their view, I guess.

I harbored a grudge over that for about 15 years, but finally got back on the Amex bandwagon with a Gold card a few years ago. 4 points per dollar on dining and groceries works out really well for me.

I also had my debit card skimmed. Contacted the bank the same day but funds were locked. So, I ended up just using my credit card for purchases in the long run until the dispute was resolved. FWIW I am hyper vigilant looking for card skimmers at gas stations, etc. but somehow I still was targeted.

It shields you from getting your debit card skimmed. The credit card is also easier to contest if there is an issue. If you pay your credit card balance off every month, you never end up paying interest either. Finally, you can accrue points and rewards spending money you already planned to spend.

I get British Airways avios points and flight companion vouchers with mine. I only purchase things I would have otherwise already brought without it, like food shopping and fuel etc, and pay the balance to zero at the end of every month. I have no interest in using it for "genuine" credit, like buying something you can't afford and paying it back in chunks later.

In the UK, the credit card company is jointly liable with the retailer for breach of contract for purchases in the £100-£30,000 range. This is called Section 75 protection (from the section number of the Consumer Protection Act) and offers much more protection than the chargeback offered by debit card providers.

I pay off my credit card every month so no debt. Can you do chargebacks on a debit card?

You can charge back on a debit card, but the money doesn't get back into your account right away, and of course until you realize what is up your bank account is down that money (or even negative) and you thus don't have that money to spend. If your account is negative you are charged bank fees - I'm not sure if they will refund them, but at the very least until the investigation completes you are out that money as well.

which is to say if there is fraud a debit card will eventually fix you, but while things work through the system you have no money for day to day life. With a credit card you don't pay that part of the bill and so your money is still there for day to day life.

All that’s true and you should always prepare for the worst case. That said, I’ve had a couple fraud events over the last few years before insulating layers like Apple Pay were widely available. I’d pay for dinner at some sketchy restaurant, then a month later someone’s using my card to buy gas in Tijuana (real story). My credit union was amazing each time. They’d immediately issue provisional refunds for the fraudulent amounts, waive any fees, and have a new card in the mail a day later. It was inconvenient to be sure, but the credit union made it as painless as possible.

Credit cards often have extended warranties in the US. Once two of our Android phones failed due to a defect a few months after warranty expired. I called up the credit card company and they returned the full amount for both phones with minimal fuss.

The % cash back we accumulate to buy fun stuff for the family. Like a new laptop or video game system.

Also we pay off our credit cards monthly so there is no debt buildup but the activity helps maintain a good credit score. Some people fall into the mindset that a credit card is an extra source of money.

Fraudulent transactions. Debit card - you are out the money until you sort it out with the bank. Credit card - you’re not the out the money, it’s the bank’s money.

For me it's very convenient to have all purchases listed in the same account, also saves me time in decision making. As for debt, that's what budgets are for.

The main reason is because in the US if someone skims your card at a gas station and charges money to your account, it is next to impossible to get your money back from the bank. A credit card company is more likely to refund the transaction on the other hand.

That's not true. Debit cards have fraud protection similar to credit cards. But the big difference is that you have a smaller window to report the issue, and while it is being resolved, you're out of the money instead of the bank. And it may be a bigger PITA if you need to close the account.

> That's not true. Debit cards have fraud protection similar to credit cards.

Similar being the key word. Yes they are somewhat similar, but credit cards have better protection by regulation, so they are not the same.

https://www.experian.com/blogs/ask-experian/are-credit-cards...

The two day reporting on debit cards is particularly risky. I very actively review every transaction, but only about every two weeks at best or once a month at worst. With credit cards this is not an issue.

That's 2 days if you physically lose your card. Otherwise you have 60 days after you receive your statement. If you know where your wallet it, and you review statements once per month, you're fine. I still use a credit card instead, though, because I'd rather the lost money be the bank's problem to resolve.

As a consumer in the UK, I would wholeheartedly recommend Amex... they've always taken my side and even actively argued my case against "rogue" retailers and companies whenever I've had a problem... their customer service is exceptional compared to almost any other company I've had a card with.

their customer service is exceptional compared to almost any other company of any kind I've dealt with

Totally agreed

Even when I cancelled my card (fee based) they did it within about 60 seconds, no attempt at retaining me, automatically issued a pro rata refund of the fee etc. And the chargeback process has always been a breeze

> As a consumer who got in trouble during the 2008 depression, I will note that Discover is less forgiving, and quicker to sell your debt to debt collectors than any other bank.

Discover does lots of subprime lending so that makes sense, sell the debt off quickly to get the most pennies per dollar for the bad debt.

As a consumer, Amex treats me well. Both under normal and exceptional circumstances, that's rare in consumer business relationships.

Amex has the highest fees but also the wealthiest consumers. So business have to begrudgingly put up with it.

> 13 digits in a card number

I think you mean 15?

Pedantic but correct. They just had to be different.

> 13 digits in a card number, 4-digit CVV, other weird problems that other card types didn't have.

> Discover is less forgiving,

> My take is to avoid both as a consumer, if you can.

These don't seem like equal complaints. I would recommend Amex if you are a high-spender and pay your bills on time every month. They have way better customer service and perks.

> Small businesses dislike taking Amex because the per-transaction processing fees are bigger.

Even some larger ones. I keep getting emails from Ebay saying they're not going to accept Amex soon.

I have been an Amex card holder for nearly 30 years. It's one of the few brands I have real loyalty to because they've saved my bacon so many times while traveling and in other ways.

The conclusions of this analysis match my own personal experiences discovering that friends and others I had success with in business were also Amex cardholders. Amex cardholders are generally more affluent and better at understanding and handling their own finances compared to cardholders of other brands. I chalk that up mostly to Amex being more selective about who they issue cards to.

As an investor that means there's a lower risk (or higher risk adjusted return) for every dollar Amex holds on its books compared to other card issuing lenders.

Also have a fierce loyalty to AmEx as a customer. I use it as often as I can to pay for things. Their customer services is phenomenal, and its nice to have an arbiter between you and a merchant when things come up. Anytime I've had an issue with a merchant, I try to work with them first, and then jump to Amex if they aren't willing to work with me. In every instance Amex has been able to fix the problem, typically by refusing payment to the vendor after an investigation. It's like having insurance for your purchases.

I say this as a generic green card member of 25 years. I know a lot of people pay for higher tiers for travel benefits, but the base service has been excellent for my needs.

> It's like having insurance for your purchases.

All credit cards provide this, though. Certainly not all will have exemplary customer service but I have a Chase card I've successfully disrupted transactions through as well.

Apple Card's service is terrible, have heard of multiple people denied a chargeback for obvious fraud or services not provided.

I only use it for specific Apple purchases and Apple Pay for consumable goods now.

This doesn't sound like something a rational, financially-savvy person would write - instead, it sounds like the opinion of someone who is easily manipulated by a few sales-driven anecdotes. The comment just sounds like a shabby advertisement.

Also, are most Europeans financially illiterate and poor since they aren't AmEx customers and have general disdain for the debt-driven economy of credit cards?

Wow, being accused of a shill at the same time as the most uncharitable take on my comment possible.

I'm in no way associated to AmEx other than being a customer. I'm a frequent traveler and formerly digital nomad (78 countries and counting), and so have had many opportunities to see the benefit of my card. I've even mentioned one particular instance before on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36624867 Since HN skews towards people who work in the tech industry, I imagine I am not alone in that many of us are likely folks who both travel often and have an AmEx.

I didn't say anything about Europeans, and I didn't say people who don't have an Amex are financially illiterate or poor, I said the folks who Amex has as customers are affluent and better at handling their finances (read: better at paying off their debts). This is reflected in the data, including what is shared in the post. It's not at all a controversial statement, and espousing the positive side of that coin does not indicate in any way that I believe or hold the views from the other side of the coin.

I don't think they meant anything about Europeans since Amex is primarily an American brand. I think the data proves it out and it could also have something to do with their history as a charge card (i mentioned in another comment).

A charge card means that if you decide to put $10k on the card to buy a new big thing, you need to have 10k to pay it off at the end of the month.

That would logically self-select for people who have the financial ability to pay off a card that has an 'unlimited limit'. As the card levels go up, you've also got hefty fees ($500+) which again select for people who view $500 as a small price compared to the benefits.

I think the OP was rational in their conclusion. Sidenote, it also has nothing to do with 'debt fueled economy' -- there's no debt accrued with charge cards.

AmEx, at least classically (though less so today) is a “charge card”, not a “credit card”. It’s a subtle distinction, since they do extend short-term credit, but until Pay Over Time became a thing recently, your AmEx bill had to be paid in full every month.

As they made no money from balances carried, they have traditionally had higher merchant fees and annual fees for cardholders. The flip side, for the merchant, is that wealthy American cardholders vastly prefer using AmEx, so if those are part of your target market, you are much better off accepting it.

I think your tone is not helpful here. The parent isn't attacking you.

Clearly US & ROW card markets are wildly different due to various regulations; the structure of the US market and related incentives are pretty unusual. A statement about a US-based experience doesn't & can't translate toe Europe.

They really are selective. In my 20s I once missed a single payment to a department store card that I owed $60 to (Not an Amex card) and Amex abruptly closed all my accounts in response. I'd never been late paying Amex, nor did I have anything else negative on my credit.

It took me a decade or so to get over my grudge against whatever algorithm triggered that, but I have an Amex card again.

Amex has been constantly loosing merchants in the UK. Most recent case is eBay no longer accepting it.

I'm in Germany and I've never seen any signs anywhere indicating Amex is accepted, only Visa, MasterCard and Meastro/GiroCard/EC/whatever.

Those signs are generally outdated. I've had cashiers tell me they don't take Amex, and when I tell them to try and run it regardless it almost always ends up working. PoS systems have evolved a lot in the last decade.

In my experience any time a merchant tells me they don't take Amex, they actually do take Amex but the owner / manager doesn't like paying the higher merchant fees so refuses it since most people carry an alternative payment card. I generally insist, and actually if any merchant /does/ accept Amex and claims they don't, it's a violation of their merchant agreement and you can report them for this.

With the exception of international travel, while I'm in the US I generally /only/ carry my Amex, because it's as good as cash for any of the businesses I'd generally want to frequent anyhow.

I once had a conversation with a merchant about not taking AmEx. He told me they could take it, their machine and merchant accounts were all set up, but instead of getting paid [whatever they charged] - [small percentage merchant fee] relatively quickly, they were sent a bill for AmEx fees that was almost impossible to correlate with sales. AmEx only paid them for the sales later.

AmEx are 'better' for customers because they screw the merchants over.

These days most merchants are large or small and just use Square or some POS where they don't even know what's happening so not sure this is really an issue anymore.

I've had cashiers in Germany balk at my debit card because it says "Visa" on it and tell me "we only take EC" or sometimes even "we only take EC or Maestro". The joke is of course that EC hasn't existed since 2007 (when it was renamed to "girocard") and Maestro was discontinued by MasterCard, which is why many German banks replaced Maestro debit cards with Visa debit cards.

I wouldn't rely on cashiers to know more than just whether they take debit or credit.

The EC/girocard thing is real though - those POS devices usually don't work with my American Visa - just my Deutsche Bank "EC" karte.

This has generally always been true for credit cards; it's also the genesis of the "we don't take Discover" joke above. Better for consumers == merchants have more hassles.

Lot of places take Amex now. I see most POS taking it. There are some holdouts who only take Visa, Mastercard but pretty much everywhere in my small town take Amex without any comments.

I spent a week in Cologne recently and used my Amex almost everywhere I went.

On their investor day, Amex said their aspiration is to reach 80% merchant coverage in France, Italy, Germany, Sweden and Finland by 2026

On their investor day in May, Amex said international acceptance was one of their highest priorities. And they have been making impressive progress in target markets.

The real problem is consumer presumption of lack of amex acceptance.

True! They mentioned that too. Technical acceptance level is not the same as consumer or even merchant awareness.

this has not been my experience at all. i see them supported everywhere in london. and even supported in cornwall recently.

Small shops, cafes, restaurants, even chains in London refuse to take it.

> Small shops, cafes, restaurants, even chains in London refuse to take it

I’ve never noticed it, but I’m admittedly speedy when I travel. Maybe the high-end spots keep it while lower-end ones are walking away? Makes sense with e.g. eBay.

London's not really "the UK". It's so different from the rest of the country, it's like its own little city-state.

Most people in the UK live outside of London (87 % as of 2021), so I can't see how that's relevant to anything here.

For a business that targets upper middle class and HNW individuals, Greater London, the affluent parts of Southwest England, Oxfordshire, Cambridgeshire, and Northeast Scotland are all that matters.

Realistically, Amex works in most metros in the UK I've travelled in. Maybe the local kebab shop doesn't accept it, but the overlap in customer base probably isn't there anyhow.

Naive take. If the subject is money, London is always relevant.

How so? London is doing quite poor nowadays, even more so after the UK left the EU.

> London is doing quite poor nowadays

Citation needed.

It's a global financial centre and the central economic engine of the 6th biggest economy.

This is not just UK. eBay will not take Amex after next month on all its sites.

https://www.theverge.com/2024/6/6/24173108/ebay-american-exp...

https://www.americanexpress.com/en-us/newsroom/articles/comp...

Support was never terribly high in the first place. It's the least preferable for merchants.

That chart about amex winning on deliquencies rings true. UK side at least amex seems incredibly fussy about clients. They declined applications from two friends - both local equivalent of CPAs (and to my knowledge no major financial issues).

Their models could be imperfect, but Amex is known for being pickier about their customers. This is not different from other companies, such as the insurer Amica.

When in doubt, don't take the customer.

Not sure if it's ever been made official, but I'm pretty sure they look to see if your parents or close family have had an existing long term relationship with them. That's how I was able to qualify for Platinum, even though my credit score wasn't the greatest at the time.

They definitely look at corporate cards. I got a personal one with literally zero credit history or even 1st world financial paper trail. Except for a bottom tier corporate card with rather light sporadic use.

That was apparently enough substance

I didn't realize Amica is especially picky.

But I guess it makes sense. Their customer service and claims handling has been outstanding. That's probably easier with a more trustworthy (or less risky) clientele.

Certainly not as picky as some of the fancy cards but yeah they def reject uni educated people with stable income

my dad has worked there for 35 years, and as far as i know, they only used to operate off referrals, it wasnt even open to the public

That's how my wife and I got in, years ago.

I actually had assumed it was a myth created by their advertising department. Interesting to learn it was (is?) true.

It must be tough being only a credit card and not also a person's bank— there's just way less info to go on about their financial practices.

The main product of AMEX is not a credit card.

It is a charge card which sets them apart from the credit card business and brings a higher yield to AMEX, the business.

The main product of AMEX is access to its cardholders.

Because they are picky about who receives their card, an amex cardholder is likely to spend more than a cardholder of another network.

This is why businesses accept amex despite the much higher merchant fees; the higher spending by the cardholders means that businesses accepting amex tend to come out ahead anyway, by virtue of selling more to amex cardholders.

Well it's not perfect because they didn't accept me and I spend a great deal but always pay my debts.

Dunno about others but for me the vast majority of tx do go through the card.

But yeah I guess they’re blind to stuff like rent and cash bal on hand.

Yup big reason I have a Discover and not AmEx. I do not have the best credit, but mostly because I carry balances. Yet I've never missed a payment in nearly 25 years (since being in college) and that was with Discover. I have the same account since then. But AmEx would never accept me.

For those unfamiliar - historically*, American Express was the card of the well-connected and well-to-do. And at least statistically, that's still the case. So between how well AmEx treats it's "members", and their awareness of the social status - AmEx's business model has a pretty good moat.

*Meaning back to the late 1950's. Things get very different if you look at the century before that.

I worked at AmEx for many years. I hated every second of it- the culture, the work, the people, and management. Besides that, I hate to admit that they have a great product.

I'm quite curious about why you hated it so much.

I had a discover card for a long time. It had amazing cash-back benefits, low interest rate, and no annual fee.

Bad for business, but really great card!

We went to Amex exclusively for the flight rewards with Delta, even copping the annual fee b/c it paid back in travel rewards (we travel often for work / fun).

I've had the Blue Delta Amex card for 20 years as my "daily driver" but recently concluded that the miles benefit was just not sufficient vs. a different card that gave cash back. It takes years and years of purchases to build up enough miles to redeem for even a single domestic trip. Ultimately not worth it unless you're augmenting it with regular paid-travel and/or use a card with a yearly fee.

I will keep it around for "risky" transactions though, where I believe I may have to issue a chargeback, since Amex is very customer-friendly when it comes to chargebacks.

The productivity in my life for my AMEX Platinum card is directly inversely proportional with how much traveling I do. If I'm having an off-year for traveling, it's pretty much nothing more than weight in my pocket.

Discover IT was used to start my credit-building journey a year ago, and helped me reach a 740 credit score in 12 months after having 3 total credit accounts (Discover IT, Apple Card, Amex Plat) and 1 installment account (car loan).

My bias between the two is clear.

I hate AMEX platinum now, it is an overpriced card.

For me, Venture X is a much better card. Cheaper, much better travel portal with PRICE MATCHING, widely accepted in EU, PRIMARY car rental insurance up to $75k.

The AmEx platinum seems like a fancy coupon book full of credits I mostly wouldn’t use. Maybe if I cared about airport lounges more I would feel differently, but I agree with your sentiment. I have a hard time understanding the value prop of their charge cards.

I regularly go through their coupon book to see what I’m already using that they pay for. Clear (the airport fast check in thing) is fully reimbursed. They give me a $15/mo Uber credit. I wanted to buy some stuff from Walmart when they had a really good online sale, and Amex pays for the Walmart version of Amazon Prime. I don’t travel an awful lot, but get $200/yr in Southwest credits, so WiFi and drinks are basically always free for me.

I’ve signed up for a couple of things I wouldn’t have otherwise, but mostly I get reimbursed for things I was using anyway.

For the vast majority of Americans, they don't use Uber even once every month and $15 credit is money thrown away (Unless they order Uber Eats, which is not common either -- I found that most people I know rarely order food delivery). So the credit and Uber membership is really targeted to a certain group of their users.

And when you look at their Walmart+ and upcoming Dunkin credits... Well, it gets very confusing who the target card holders are. It seems to me one is very likely to lose money on the annual fee unless they really travel and dine out a lot.

Fine, but my point was that those are things I use that they pay for. They also have a Disney subscription discount and things like that. I don’t use those but lots of people do.

>unless they really travel and dine out a lot.

I mean, these are travel cards first and foremost.

AMEX Gold and others with similar bonuses like AMEX Delta Platinum also cater to local use (groceries and dining), but if you can't/don't make thorough use of the No Foreign Transaction Fee benefit you really should be looking at other cards AMEX or otherwise.

It's a "travel" card not accepted in most of places in EU.

Walmart+ is absolute garbage. They have special pricing online and won't give that price in store. Same day pick up often becomes next day after you order.

As much hate Amazon gets, they are a much better business than Walmart.

I was reckoning about Venture X, what are the catches you've found in your use of one?

I've had the card for a few months now, and will be cancelling Amex Platinum next time fee hits.

The only "catch" is that to get most benefit you have to use their travel portal. Also, the points have to be redeemed towards travel purchases. Other than that I did not have any problem at all.

All-Inclusive resorts are kind of lacking last time I searched their portal.

Will look into pre-approval, thank you!!

I didn't have student loans (went to a cheap college and was fortunate enough to have parents that could foot the bill) and had not needed to borrow money from a bank until I had finally had a good job and wanted to replace my beater car that was on it's last legs with a decent used car. I struggled to get any loan for more than a year, until I learned that we had access to a credit union through my job. The whole time no credit card company wanted to touch me, except Discover, who gave me a card with a $200 limit. I'm still with them, now with a more reasonable credit limit, and it's the only card I have.

Between that and seeing how much the 'age of accounts' penalty was dinging my otherwise good score really left a bad taste in my mouth. It feels like they want you to be in debt from birth. I guess that's why they want to feed us daycare loans as the new student loans.

>It feels like they want you to be in debt from birth.

Not exactly. Banks want to figure out your financial riskiness, and in the absence of historical data they usually just assume the worst case scenario just short of ongoing bankruptcy.

So just having an open credit card account that is many years or even decades old and in good standing goes a long way towards your credit score, regardless if you even put any spend on it.

Inversely, if you have only have new credit cards the banks simply don't have much history to work with, and so you are scored lower.

Trust ("credit"!) takes a lot of time to build.

Credit Card business is such a weird one. Especially cashbacks is a thing that just baffles me.

Perhaps it shouldn't be legal to push costs to merchants in such a shady way.

My understanding is Europe caps the interchange / card fees that credit card companies can charge merchants. I’d love to see something like this in the US; visa/mastercard/amex/discover basically are a constant source of inflation.

> My understanding is Europe caps the interchange / card fees that credit card companies can charge merchants.

Not sure, how strongly this applies. I frequently get denied(verbal denial that Amex doesn't work, use something else!) when I pull out my Amex in stores(random Tedi/Lidl/Aldi but not all), so now I usually resolve to ApplyPay(cashier don't see the card and can't ask to use some other card). If it is actually denied by the machine, I use a different one, no harm done.

One particular small cafe told me, Amex charges are too high and cost them more than Giro/Visa/MC. Some places are also very adament about using a "Debit" only Visa/MC/Giro!

Instead of a cap, I'd like to see merchants able to add interchange fee as a line item such that paying Cash, or whatever form of payment, and effectively let the consumer opt out CC fees.

that already frequently happens in small town stores. You may see two prices for each item (if items are labeled with prices) or just get a higher bill with an additional line item.

Amex has consistently given me a much higher credit limit than everyone else. It’s not even close. My Amex card has a 3x higher limit than the next highest card, which is a tie between Amazon (Chase) and PayPal. For a long time, the gap was closer to 5x.

This results in all large purchases going on Amex since I don’t want to destroy any card’s utilization ratio. And I think that’s a deliberate gamble they made that’s paying off for them. It probably only works because of the amount of data they collect. But it’s a good product otherwise, if you can use it responsibly.

Not my experience at all. Two of my Chase cards each have credit limits above $25k. Amex still only $12k. And I've been a longer Amex cardholder than a Chase cardholder.

And I don't care about utilization ratio: for credit scoring, only current utilization ratio has any effect not historical utilization ratio.

Use the “Check my spending power” feature. Type in $20k. You’ll almost certainly get a limit increase within a few days. Do it again in a few months. I bet you could get to $30k within a year.

Amex's reputation for backing the customer, means you don't even always need to go to them for help. My wife was dealing with a travel agent not wanting to issue a refund (when the listing specifically gave the refund window, and we were inside it). She was at her wits end and finally said, "ok I'll call Amex, the listing is clear and they'll do a chargeback", that caused them to get a manager on the line and our refund was processed immediately.

US credit and credit-card landscape baffles me AF :D

I just have <some-plastic> (I think it's MC, couldn't be bothered which one is it) and just pay with it...

American Express sucks when you leave the United States, especially in Europe.

When I had my wallet stolen in London about a decade ago, Amex was far faster, easier, and friendlier replacing my credit card than was Citibank. Did it at an in-person Amex office.

As an Australian, I’ve never seen Discover cards.

American Express has been largely replaced in Australia by Visa signature and Mastercard platinum cards that are more difficult for merchants to deny.

In Japan/Taiwan they seem to be widely accepted. Most places in Japan that accept VISA/MC, also accept AmEx.

IMO, Discover's web and mobile application is better than AMEX.

Jerry Seinfeld / American Express ad:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufDslAOkZ50

I don't understand that ad, why would anyone care about doing exactly 20?

Using credit cards was not the norm in the 80s/90s, using cash was.

And no one wanted to get the dreaded 99 pennies back if you could avoid it.

Using credit cards meant you didn't have to worry about pennies anymore.

3 quarters, 2 dimes and 4 pennies. Still plenty, but not as bad as 99 pennies.

Or you could give them a penny and get a dollar back, but that might confuse the cashier.

because of change.

US currency offered in 1, 5, 10, 20, 50, 100 denominations. $20 bill being the most common bill that people carried.

The TL;DR is that AmEx targets ultra high spenders and corporations, while Discover is generally considered low end (and has the highest delinquency rates to show for it).

While I have a Visa just in case (AMEX isn't accepted everywhere), I nonetheless have disdain for Visa and Mastercard (I don't have the latter).

AMEX doesn't care what I'm spending on so long as it's legal (obviously) and it's actually me doing the spending. Visa/Mastercard care far too much about how I spend money, which is frankly none of their business so long as I properly pay the bills (which I do).

AMEX is in the business of moving money between customer and merchant and performs their job exceptionally, so I'll always use them over Visa/Mastercard when possible.

I had weird issues in South America where (say) Visa was accepted, but MasterCard wasn't. As a(n) (North-)American, i've always considered the 2 as precisely equal because the processors that handle one always seem to handle the other. The only question is only ever whether Amex or Discover is accepted.

Amex absolutely does care what you're spending on and will slap an insulting low limit on your previously NPSL card if you run afoul of their judgement.

What is it that makes a National Premier Soccer League card better?

You mean pornhub can still take Amex? I thought Visa and MC banned it.

No clue about Pornhub, but as someone who frequently shops at Japanese online stores I know places like DMM stopped taking Visa/Mastercard (because of their nanny bullshittery) while they still take AMEX like they always did.

That whole fiasco vindicated my loyalty to AMEX: So long as the transaction is legal and authorized and ultimately paid for, they really do not care how an AMEX cardholder spends because it's none of their business.

A number of Japanese sellers have been blocked from Visa/MC but still take Amex and Discover/JCB. DLSite changed a bunch of category names, which would suggest that those were the things Visa/MC were blocking, although given that they still ended up cut off, who knows.

To be clear about who is cutting off who, it's the Japanese merchants cutting Visa/Mastercard off as far as I can tell.

They got so sick and tired of being nanny'd by Visa/Mastercard that they judged the loss of those cardholders is worth the reduction in obnoxious overhead, and I don't blame them.

Meanwhile, AMEX (and Discover/JCB/Diners Club) cards are still accepted because they just do their job of conveying money.

> To be clear about who is cutting off who, it's the Japanese merchants cutting Visa/Mastercard off as far as I can tell.

I don't think so. Particularly given that DLSite made the changes to their keywords that Visa/MC had presumably objected to, it looks like they were trying to play ball but Visa/MC still cut them off.

I'm about done with Amex. They overcorrected on lounge overcrowding and now I can't get my wife in free for my ever increasing yearly membership fee?

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