The one person in America happy about tipping fatigue | Hacker News Reader

The one person in America happy about tipping fatigue

thehustle.co

33 pointsAnon8458 comments

I worked for tips for many years before one of my regulars helped me with getting into tech (yes I was very lucky). One aspect of this issue that doesn't get talked about a lot is that there is a portion of workers (think bartenders or servers) who work for tips that prefer that system because you can make a LOT of money on certain shifts with the right kind of hustle. To put it another way, if you are working one of these jobs and you have a big expense coming up, you can work your ass off and make more money. Your pay goes up proportionally to your effort. In an hourly job that doesn't happen. You just make what you make. To be clear: I AM NOT DEFENDING TIPPING CULTURE. I am just pointing out that there is a certain cohort of folks who perpetuate it to the detriment of everyone else. When the whole fair wage discussion gets brought up, those folks are the ones who rally the hardest against it. It's kind of insane.

Yes. When evaluating public opinion, we need to take into account that people who are comfortable with the hustle can make a lot from tips in certain jobs, and these people seem to be the vocal ones about keeping tipping.

There is a common accusation that it's business owners who like tipping because it allows them to keep wages lower. My impression from hearing owners themselves about it is that they also would generally prefer to eliminate tipping. I'd like to hear of any business owner who keeps a tipping system over the objection of the employees.

Not tipping but I have occasionally done some supplementary work as part of my job or otherwise that was either piece-work or hourly and, while I wouldn't have wanted it as my main source of income, there was something nice about being able to bill (at an admittedly nice rate) whenever I was working on a project in any manner.

They wouldn't need to push that hard if there were legal frameworks that paid them what they deserved in the first place.

This segues into what, I think, is the real problem with the status quo tipping system: as much as I love eating out and supporting (and tipping at) great restaurants, the entire business model is unsustainable for all but the largest restaurant groups (who can distribute risk) and was systematically designed around cheap labor.

> They wouldn't need to push that hard if there were legal frameworks that paid them what they deserved in the first place.

Take a moment and re-read my original comment. The cohort I am speaking about values being able to increase their pay proportionate to their effort. An hourly wage. Even a fair one (which is VERY unlikely in the US) would cap their earning potential. That is unacceptable to the group I’m speaking of hence them pushing for the exploitative status quo.

> Take a moment and re-read my original comment. The cohort I am speaking about values being able to increase their pay proportionate to their effort.

Do they declare this pay increase on their income tax form?

Before COVID shut it down, I had picked up bartending as a side gig for something to do on top of my tech job. It wasn't so much about the money for me, so I'd often try bypassing the tipping screen on the machine for the customer... And then they'd get upset with me for doing so.

It's pretty clear that the customers also prefer to give tips. Until you quash that, things can't change. The customer dictates everything in the end.

This definitely is not everyone and may be more for bartending than other services.

You're right, not everyone did tip, but in my experience the vast majority did.

What is certain is that the practice wouldn't exist if the customer didn't like it. I mean, why would someone buy something they don't like? Especially something so frivolous? That wouldn't make any sense. But you could tell that of those who did tip, they got enjoyment out of it.

Question that rises from this sort of thing happening is that, if they are actually making what can be considered a lot of money. Is the current rate too high? Could customers instead tip some fraction and they would still be fine? Let's say drop rate to 5%? Going from a lot to just reasonable amount?

> Question that rises from this sort of thing happening is that, if they are actually making what can be considered a lot of money

You can make over 6 figures at certain jobs/shifts. It's one of the few jobs where thats possible if you don't have a degree or are skilled in a trade. The entire industry is a hugely exploitive closer*ck without many easy answers. The margins in food and beverage are razor thin so having this messed up system where you don't have to pay your labor a living wage kind of perpetuates itself. There is benefit on both ends of the deal. At least for front of house employees. Back of house just gets screwed on every level.

In the UK, it's become fairly common to just have a (supposedly optional) 10% fee for table service. And I assume most people pay that and no more and no less.

Living in country where price you pay is the one next to the item this just seems unnecessary exploitation that is allowed... Price shown should be inclusive of everything. I can accept charging extra for extra service like delivery, but basic service should be in the price.

You are free to print 10% of item price goes to workers, but price should still be one that customer ends up paying in the end.

Hospitality workers have the most glaring conflict of interest, while acting like they are marginalized people whose voices we should listen to.

Respectfully, this is a gross over simplification of the problem. There is a vocal minority of folks, mostly "front of house" that stand to make a decent living. No ones getting rich. It's just that you can make a good wage without a college degree. The appeal is obvious. THAT SAID, the vast majority of workers in hospitality are making poverty wages and working 70+ hours a week in conditions that most of us in our cushy tech jobs would not be able to tolerate. If you've never worked in the industry (and your comment makes me suspect you haven't) then its very hard to understand. It's the kind of thing you have to see.

I’m not sure what the insight here is supposed to be.

Well to elaborate, I see this reality manifested from them as a promotion of tipping, of tipping even higher amounts than the machines prompt, of greater disdain for people the lower their tips are, perpetuating disdain of people by race based on tipping habits.

when it should be directed at management and legislation

I'm not sure the law changing will do much unless they literally ban tipping. In Canada most or I think all provinces now have no subminimum wage for servers, yet tipping is still expected. It's honestly sort of silly. I'm not entirely sure why some lady taking my order and maybe handing me extra napkins is entitled to 15%+ of my bill while the McDonald's fry cook isn't when they make the same base salary.

Same in Oregon, from personal experience. There is no subminimum wage for restaurant workers but tipping is still very much expected.

McDonalds does not allow tipping: https://www.mcdonalds.com/gb/en-gb/help/faq/why-are-staff-no...

I think it was a generic example rather than meant to be specifically accurate. Replace McDonalds with the name of any other restaurant. Why is the server entitled to 15% but the cook or dishwasher not?

In the U.S., from what I've heard from friends who have been food service workers, the tips are collected by the server, but split up nightly among the whole front/back set of workers.

Every place tends to do this differently, in practice it is never an even split (greatly favoring the servers). And at least in the state I worked was completely voluntary as the tips were yours.

It's variable. I worked at a place where back of the house didn't get any of the tips.

I've heard about that in Europe as well, dunno if it's the norm or just some places that do it.

Far from universal

Quebec still has a lower minimum wage for servers: $12.60 instead of $15.75.

https://www.cnesst.gouv.qc.ca/en/working-conditions/wage-and...

No subminimum wage + tipping is fine.

But I think tipping before you receive what you pay for is extortion, and that should be banned.

> tipping before you receive what you pay for is extortion

100% agree. I tip at places where I am not receiving anything beyond counter service because I can't shake the fear that refusing to tip could negatively affect the meal I'm buying.

Even Burgerville (locally well known fast food chain) asks for tips now. I go there less often as a result. I don't like the way it makes me feel.

One of the big problems with tipping at the moment is that menu prices have increased and % gratuity expectations have also increased making gratuity dramatically outstrip inflation.

Say that twenty years ago the norm was to tip 15% on your $10 burger ($1.50) now it may be 20% on your $20 burger ($4.00) which is a 167% higher tip for your 100% more expensive burger.

At the same time median income went from ~$60k to $75k or a 25% increase. Eating out/tipping is simply much less affordable in current times.

There are plenty of other problems with tipping but I think the raw price is what people are feeling the most.

[]: https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/1b7rss8/30...

[]: https://www.statista.com/statistics/200838/median-household-...

I don't disagree, but find the way the stats are displayed to be interesting because flipping the numbers seems to imply that the majority of Americans feel the opposite

> 35% of Americans think tipping culture is out of control, according to a 2024 Bankrate survey

> 25% of U.S. customers will actually tip less when presented with suggested tip amounts on a touch screen

> 29% of Americans see tipping as an obligation, according to Pew, rather than a choice (21%)

Maybe? The source:

https://www.bankrate.com/personal-finance/tipping-survey/

Says 66% have a negative view on tipping and 30% think it is out of control. The fact that 70% doesn't think it is out of control doesn't mean they approve

If 66% have a negative view of it, it seems rather unlikely that 70% approve. Maybe in Chicago.

It's only just starting here in the UK. Those card payment things seem to have a tip option that can be enabled and they make you hit "no" (or choose a nonzero amount). A dark pattern basically. So many people must feel pressured to press a nonzero button. I'm going to start refusing to press them and make them get it ready to accept my payment.

Tipping culture can change. In the early 1900s, people in Berlin complained about how little americans tipped [1] . And now, Germans complain about tipping at all when coming to America. https://www.nytimes.com/1912/07/14/archives/tipping-in-berli...

Because one is not expected to tip in Germany, only in the Balkans. Italy and Hungary both have service tax if you sit down. For takeout they might have a tip jar where you tip a few coins. And I've only been very nicely asked to tip in Sicily, where a barista is his 60s kindly made two perfect espressos, arranged everything on a platter and jestured that I need not handle anything but the tip jar.

A screen with a tip suggestion? A great way to guarantee no tip. Also, I only tip in cash. The cash should go to the people doing the service, not machines, not faceless corporations and definitely not towards more taxes.

They're obligated to report the tips as income, so, legally speaking, it goes to taxes either way.

Sure it does. Especially in the Balkans.

> Because one is not expected to tip in Germany, only in the Balkans

As someone from the Balkans, it's customary to round up at a restaurant if you were happy with the service. With card payments this is mostly going away, but you still can do it.

But only if you were really happy with the service and want to reward that. None of this American "you're literally forcing the waiters to starve to slave for you if you don't give them at least 20% tip" bullshit.

I'm not American, and the culture here wasn't to tip everyone for doing their job, but I don't mind it if I feel the food and service were good. But presented with a screen suggesting I tip, with/out a suggested amount, is pretty much a guarantee I'm not tipping. If I tip I want to make sure it's going to the people I want to tip.

Regulate the intermediary! Or merely apply social pressure.

Just forget about hospitality worker opinions with their completely glaring conflict of interest, everyone collectively ignore them.

Tell payment processors that they cant sell tipping screens to certain (or any) vendor code

Tell insurers of the payment processor they cant insure them if they push tipping screens

At the local level create incentives for non-tip culture businesses that go out of their way to that to discourage it, effectively penalizing the tipping culture ones

The article briefly touches on it, but complicating things are practices like tip pooling at restaurants (tips are shared among all low wage staff, regardless if they did anything) and tips going into the revenue bucket of the business.

I’m less inclined to tip when I don’t know where the money is going. Handing people straight cash frequently also ends up in tip pools from policy as well.

I find the tipping-before-service stuff down right creepy. Each time I hit zero I feel I'm taking a gamble they're going to spit in my cappuccino. I don't think this needs legislation - just avoid businesses that use these dark patterns

next up, don't forget to tip your surgeon and your lawyer

As anyone who has ever worked for tips or traveled abroad knows, tipping is observably a cultural phenomenon.

Me, personally, I think complaining about it is tacky and shows poor character.

I even tip (albeit less) for takeout. Why? Well for one the kitchen staff did just as much work as they would have had a waitress brought my order. And second and far more importantly, because that’s how I’d like to be treated and I generally aim to follow the golden rule in my dealings.

As another aside, normally there is significant hysteresis between prices and wages. Percentage based tipping has no hysteresis and is thus observably a more just compensation model for servers. Especially in a time where grocery prices are up 20% over the past four years.

Also, wage theft is a pervasive problem and tipping is resistant.

> and is thus observably a more just compensation model for servers

Except for the several studies showing tips have little to no correlation with service quality and depend primarily on the customer’s self perception as a tipping person.

For example with takeout, you tip at time of order. You don’t even know yet what kind of service you’re gonna get.

There’s also that famous mythbusters episode where they showed tips correlate perfectly with the server’s boob size. Very fair indeed

So what happens if you don't tip?

Asking Americans here as we don't have a tipping culture in my country, at least not to this extent.

Also, is it just in restaurants and food related businesses or services in general? Are you expected to tip your hairdresser or mechanic or plumber?

One time our party had bad service at our first time at a restaurant (lunch with coworkers), waited 60 minutes for our meals when other people who arrived after us got their meals and us asking for an explanation and getting nothing while waiting, we tipped a dollar for 100+ dollar meal to give them a message. When we were leaving the manager and server stopped us and asked for their tip and tried to guilt trip us into leaving a bigger tip. You can never go back to the same restaurant again because we joke you cannot trust them to not tamper with your food or ignore you or make you wait much longer for every thing. It's a bizarre guilt trip experience that has spread to every food serving business, the business pays less to employees, so the customers have to pay for their food plus extra for the employee to do their job with a smile - cashiers/counters where you pick up food/drinks expect a gratuity and it's built into point of sale touchpads where you are forced to select from different gratuity amounts. It's very weird when compared to any other country I've been to.

Nothing, 99.99% of the time. Especially for counter service.

I always hit no, and move on.

Bartenders at a busy bar might make make you wait longer, but even then, I doubt it happens most of the time.

Personally I love tipping. I’ll tip even for ridiculous things like buying a bag of coffee bean. Guy seemed nice and smiled and tried to answer a question I had - sure have an extra couple bucks. Not a big deal to me, but who knows maybe it is to him. Hell sometimes I’ll even tip an additional 20% on top of the built tip at places where they add ~20% to the bill before you get it, though I reserve this for exceptional cases.

On the flip side, I’ll just as happily tip near 0 at a restaurant when the situation calls for it. If we were somehow to abolish tipping, this would not be possible - prices would just increase uniformly.

It would work like everything else. That "expensive" grocery store that continues to stock the high quality products that you love would still get your business even though they raise prices. In the meantime, the mediocre one would not, and they would be forced to lower prices accordingly.

I just want to know what the price of something is and make my own decisions about whether or not it's worth it. The social and mental gymnastics over tipping is just exhausting.

Except here the grocery store pricing is “name your price” and folks are free to pick the price that suits the level of service they desire/receive.

It’s a leaver we have, and it’s rather powerful if you know how to use it. Doing away with it because “the mental gymnastics” of calculating ~1/5th of a total is too much for some folks to handle is just ridiculous pandering to the lowest common denominator.

I’m happy to receive the best service available at the places I frequent because the staff knows I will compensate them generously. If folks are unwilling to do so, that’s fine: they can still get food/drinks. But they’ll always be further back in the priority queue than me, because I value the time of the wait staff.

Great servers DO NOT want to get paid a higher wage from the restaurant instead of tips because they make so much more in tips.

"Great servers"? You mean servers who deal with large bills? The amount they get as tips is determine generally by the bill not the service.

Yes, the proportionality is one stupid thing about tipping. If I take a super expensive bottle of wine, is the service worth more? Conversely, if I take the cheapest salad, is it worth less?

Speaking as someone who has many friends who owns restaurants - you're speaking outside of your domain knowledge

According to the article, 'great' really means white, young, pretty...

You mean I shouldn't have tipped the miminum wage South Asian who installed my beach umbrella? They're far from their family doing a job in a very foreign country, sleeping who knows where along with who knows how many colleagues and sending most of their income home.

Do you tip your accountant if you have one? Or doctor? Or every nurse when you visit hospital?

Do companies tip consultants extra beyond billed rate if they think they did nice enough job?

while I dislike tipping culture on everything, working for annual bonuses, RSUs, options, sales commissions, and other conditional or discretionary comp is the middle class version of it. ironically, the justice in tipping is that the person doing the work is getting equity in the transaction and direct consideration for their work.

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