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Comment by wwtrv | Hacker News Reader

> To be blunt, if that hadn't happened, the Jews would have probably disappeared into the general European population by the 15th Century

That seems like a bizarre claim... If anything the attacks, discrimination etc. would have encouraged assimilation. Voluntary conversion to Christianity wasn't particularly uncommon either (forced violent conversion also occurred). Even when national governments started expelling their entire Jewish populations staying and getting to keep all of your property ussually was an option. Yet most chose to leave rather than convert.

Yes, converted Jews might have faced discrimination and even violence (this depended a lot on the willingness to abandon your old customs and practices and varied hugely based on time and place, but seemingly became a bigger issue at the very end of the middle ages) but ussually they managed to more or less fully assimilate in a few generations.

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I see where you're coming from, because it sounds logical to someone who isn't part of an oppressed minority. But for the past 2500 years, religious Jews have felt threatened by the real possibility that less religious Jews would succumb to the easy life of assimilation that came with Helenization, Romanization, Germanization, etc. There is indeed a core that won't succumb to conversion in exchange for a place in the prevailing society, which is why Jews still exist in societies that have made it the slightest bit difficult for Jews to integrate.

But contrast that with, for instance, Kaifeng[0]. The biggest fear of Jewish believers is that they will encounter a society like America or China which swallows their talents whole and integrates them fully.

Put another way, it is a fear right now in segments of the Jewish community that without antisemitism, Jews would cease to exist. And there is a truth to this borne out by history. In Jewish communities it is practically taken for granted that if we had been treated equally, most of us would have given up our identity ages ago.

[0]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaifeng_Jews

I’ve never heard of the Kaifeng Jewish diaspora. Thanks for sharing!

>would succumb to the easy life of assimilation

Have you considered that perhaps if the idea of integration itself is considered abhorrent by a culture then that culture will very rarely be accepted anywhere?

Or to put it another way: if everywhere one goes smells like feces, maybe one should check their own boots

They want the benefits of being part of the community without being part of the community

I am making the point - and I'm not the first to make it - that the lack of acceptance is the driver. From the outside of an ostracized community, it might make sense that people would choose to quit that community to avoid ostracization. Some few do. But the majority will cling more tightly together as a result of the external pressure.

For an example, take a look at the history of the Cagots in France, who were (are) ethnically identical to other French but due to their psychological treatment and ostracizatìon were forced into tight communities for survival.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cagot

This can happen to any arbitrary group of people sufficiently singled out for any reason. A similar case exists in Japan. Then if that group remains together for fear of the abuse they receive, the broader population says "they want to be separate".

Also, your shit on boots metaphor is highly offensive, but I'm answering you as if you aren't a bigot. Sometimes the reason people end up as bigots is that no one treated them with respect and gave them complete answers.

Cagots didn't really have an option of assimilating besides moving to a different region, that's what was special about them. Jews on the other hand ussually would do reasonably fine after converting. Of course it varied a lot by location/period and belonging to a group or a specific community was very important in premodern societies. You'd lose your entire support network and while you might be lucky enough to live in a place were other Christians wouldn't be throwing rocks at you you'll probably never be fully accepted (your grandchildren etc. might).

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