Global IT outage shows dangers of cashless society, campaigners say
theguardian.com
theguardian.com
Most importantly though, I remember my history professor who always said, "follow the money!" Do the CEO and the board have to pay (either in money out of pocket or time served in prison) for these problems (outages / oil spills / global warming / what not)? If not, what incentive do they have to make the likelihood of these problems dial down to zero?
I like this article
Every hardware startup founder I've been involved with has used their house and/or their retirement savings to back their operating loan.
I think the advantages of incorporation have been well established by now, and believe that partly removing limited liability would not significantly effect incorporation rates.
Customers want cheap services, and a corporation that would employ three times as many QA people would be disadvantaged against the ones that just wing it.
It will take several incidents such as this, before the market starts understanding that some extra cost is tolerable for having some sort of warranty.
The devil is in the detail though. You can have an incredibly stable distributed system with limited failure modes.
lots of examples around, a pretty well known one would be VISA transactions. Each acquirer can fail separately, and even if they're failing, some of their terminals will keep going without any impact. And the remaining acquirer will also keep chugging along.
It's still objectively a monoculture, as Amex and MasterCard are pretty rare on global scale, while visa is basically everywhere
I can't think of any part of the world I know of where only Visa cards are accepted in 2024 and not MasterCard. AMEX requires a separate contract agreement for the merchant hence why it is not bundled by default, but all acquirers offer Visa/MasterCard as one package. Visa and Mastercard have been a duopoly for far too long to differentiate between the two at the consumer level, and it just doesn't make any financial sense for a financial institution to miss out on interchange and card fees by accepting only one card type and not the other of the two.
well, maybe not fellow anymore, as I left that industry roughly 3 yrs ago ( θ ‿ θ )
As far as I'm aware, Europe, India and the "western" asian countries (Japan, Korea) has a quasi monopoly with visa, but my only industry experience is in the DACH region of Europe. Our numbers were something around 80% visa
Doing the right thing isn't always aligned with winning. Shareholders can sue a company for not doing whats in their best interest. Instruments such as public benefit corporations are relatively new. Employee owned corporations aren't very common - almost non-existent in tech / biotech /pharma / energy / transportation.
Martin Quinn, campaign director for the PCA, said using cash allowed for anonymity. “I don’t want my data sold on, and I don’t want banks, credit card companies and even online retailers to know every facet of my life,” he said. Budgeting by using cash is also easier for some, he added.
Cash is also the only payment system I can think of which is truly “private”. I think this is important too.
You can also track serial numbers when businesses return daily cash collections to their bank.
Especially the biggest denominations won't be passed back to other customers in the meantime, but rather sent back to the bank early.
Does some central authority have access to and the compute power to correlate all of the data available in those video feeds? No
*TrapWire, the bank secrecy act, and the Utah datacenter enter the chat*
my wife and I always keep some cash on hand in case of some sort of problem with the card, or tap device etc. never had my cash declined because a computer thought some other purchases that afternoon looked suspicious.
Or people know financial and monetary history and can see the backsliding with most cryptocurrencies:
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_currency
* https://archive.ph/FWKcL / https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/08/why-the...
Nicholas Weaver once remarked that cryptocurrency is “speed-running 500 years of financial history” :
Not to mention, cashless systems like Visa and Mastercard and PayPal are subject to private overlords that may scrutinize or ban your transactions.
Bridges collapse; police go corrupt; electricity has outages; gasoline suffers price shocks; governments have a 100% failure rate; an 1870s-style solar flare would send us back to medieval times.
All we can do is:
A. Diversify, under the belief nothing is infallible; and even perfect engineering can experience catastrophic failure
B. Enjoy what we have today, knowing it is a gift, not a right
Also, while we blame CrowdStrike, let’s not forget that SSH was within weeks of being backdoored on a global scale. The power that would have unleashed (and proxy power, I.e. breaking into CloudStrike and then Windows by extension) very well could have ended the internet.
2020s UK electricity infrastructure is more reliable than 1980s UK electricity infrastructure, for example.
Hence keeping cash alive has it’s advantages
...basically, label your axes.
"an 1870s-style solar flare would send us back to medieval times"
This is not true and it would have no effect on microelectronics.
No, and it doesn't need to be. We can build redundancy on every level. We can plan for failure and prepare for contingencies. We alwas need a plan B (and C and D for critical services). Will it be efficient or cheap? Of course not - we'd be building two for the price of two, but being sure that, when one fails, we have a redundant one to catch the fall of civilization.
We can't just optimize away every gram of safety and hope everything goes to plan (as they did in this case). Hope is not a strategy.
Putting up a sign that says no cash ain’t gonna cut it.
Plus here the opposite is often true: not being able to pay with card because the reader is “broken” so that you’re forced to use cash, they don’t have to pay the transaction fee and more often than not they can also don’t make you a receipt.
ADDED: And yes. Sometimes places are simply not setup to be able to take cash.
But it’s in the shelf surely? Probably on an e-ink display.
Reports about failing Apple/Google Pay actually pertained to the POS terminals the payment terminals are connected to, and not the payment infrastructure itself.
Another interesting takeaway is that we used to have an extra layer of redundancy available at the last mile of the payment processing: slip machines. They were a workaround and a fallback for exactly this kind of problem where the payment could not be processed electronically, a card payment slip would be taken, and the payment would be later processed manually.
However, with the uptake and the scale of electronic payments, card payment slips are no longer a thing mostly due to fraud related issues, plus the inconvenience of having to keep such a large contraption under the till. Even where still available, it may no longer be possible to use it as more and more debit (in particular) and even credit cards do not emboss the card details on the plastic/metal anymore.
A few bars in Portland are still cash only!
Funnily enough, I was on a Whale Watch the other day in MA which was cash only. Didn't buy anything but it was presumably because they were out of cell coverage.
I’ve seen “for employee safety, no cash payment” signs in larger cities, so I always assumed that was the main reason.
I do not have the information about what happened to the ATM's during the meltdown on Friday, but the bank branches where CrowdStrike had been deployed were rendered inoperable.
So, no, cash is not going to help.
Cash has a habit of running out from time to time, most annoyingly when it is needed and the amount of cash on hand is $0.50 – $1 short, hence the universal uptake of electronic payments. There is no going back.
[1] https://www.riksbank.se/en-gb/payments--cash/payments-in-swe...
[2] https://www.statista.com/chart/17307/paying-with-cash-europe...
Perhaps if we capped fees and made accepting cards (or any type of electronic payment) more of a utility then it wouldn't be so cumbersome and costly.
What if you don’t own tree cutting equipment?
What if you have a disability that prevents you from cutting trees?
What if your property doesn’t have trees to cut?
I’m only familiar with egg-to-pint exchange ratios, but then again most of my personal liquidity is tied up in a henhouse currently.
- Is not subject to inflation or poor central banking decisions
- Does not rot or spoil
- Is a single interchange format that can fulfil the 'double coincidence of wants'
- Has no single point of failure.
Then that currency seem to exist in the forms of gold or crypto.
In the long term, a small amount of inflation is needed to discourage hoarding. Without it, people might treat currency as an investment, leading to unstable prices like we see with gold and Bitcoin.
Currency should be stable, like standard measures (Kg, Foot) that don't change in the short term. It also functions like a store cart for shopping. If carts become scarce, shopping is difficult. Therefore, there must be an incentive to return the cart for others to use.
Another purpose of currency, albeit controversial, is to manage debt accumulation. Historically, societies faced growing debt and used "debt jubilee" events to reset, which disrupted commerce. Modern societies address this through currency inflation.
If gold or crypto were effective currencies, prices would be advertised in Bitcoin or gold. The fact that they are not suggests they don't serve well in this role.
So to really diversify you should stock up on weapons and ammunition and gather a group of likeminded people and train together in a fortified location.
Of course, that is likely to have its own issues.
If that had happened, an attacker very well could have ended the entire internet as we know it. Imagine if that hacker merely used that backdoor to get into Windows Update servers, Google Play servers, or sent out a CrowdStrike update.
We were within weeks of nothing being safe.
The world running on Windows is a monumental waste of resources and a huge security threat. This will happen over and over again.
The fact that even dummy little terminals that are strictly responsible for showing flight arrivals and departures was impacted by this is hysterical. Why was that not an android or chromeos device with an immutable filesystem, A/B blue green update strategies etc.
Exactly. It seems like we're deploying very capable and complex devices for a simple task which is showing a couple pages of text in a table format.
I do understand that main driver behind CrowdStrike installations is compliance checkbox. It still keeps the question, unless we assume pure corruption. But I've heard opinion from security experts, that this software really improves Windows security.
I have only seen people use them when windows it departments suddenly have to pretend to be cloud savvy, or when enterprisey infosec teams are looking for more vendors to bloat up their budgets. If it’s written in contracts, it’s not the customers demanding av on ephemeral cloud servers, it’s the home team bloating costs so they can cut them later for a raise and applause.
Aaaand whenever it goes that way, antivirals affect performance and stability with random problems, always hurting more than they help
The baseline is NIST guidelines but even that is a huge can of worms. It’s difficult to simply say “yes we’re compliant” especially in large organizations. https://www.cuicktrac.com/nist-compliance/nist-800-171-compl...
A lot of orgs get overwhelmed by this, and so they outsource the effort to a third party.
For a lot of people new to HN or may not remember, from 2014 - 2018, the whole Silicon Valley and tech industry, included but not limited to HN were ALL for cashless society. Pages and Pages of comment on HN were all about how great cashless society would be.
And Apple wanted to be a big part of this. In 2015 Tim Cook said he wants a cashless society by 2025.
No shit Sherlock. It takes pure genius to guess that we've had, and will always have technological / infrastructure failures.
For our particular case politicians who are pushing for elimination of cash are either criminals or brain dead imbeciles. Not sure which case is worst.
Tick tock next block.
But it was useless for buying gas with, unfortunately.
If it had to also cover an average of one meal payment per person per day, it couldn't handle just Coventry.
Extra payment layers quickly start to look like banks with all the same kinds of expectations and failures popping up.