New Linux Laptops from ZaReason | Hacker News Reader

New Linux Laptops from ZaReason

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Successors to the Verix 2.5 and the almost-a-desktop Chimera laptop: the Mir 730 and Verix 530.

Both available with up to i7-3920XM and 32GB RAM, and a price tag well under the new MBPs.

Think is exactly why macbooks are so popular. I think if a laptop manufacturer spent some (a-lot?) of effort on hardware design to compete with Apple then there would be huge demand from developers. As a developer now I have a laptop choice of

a) Horrible design with linux installed.

b) Beautiful design with a BSD like os installed.

It really is a no brainer. Even Linus uses a MBA I wonder when hardware manufacturers will start to realise that people actually care about owning beautiful things.

It's definitely an aesthetic niche - but you can easily get a Thinkpad with Linux pre-installed, and quite a few people like the design/functionality of Thinkpads.

I think your choices are more 'Utilitarian/Functional design' vs. 'Beautiful design'. Admittedly, Utility/Function designs are often ugly.

Another side to the coin is that I enjoy the look and feel of Apple keyboards - but I can't stand working without home/end/delete keys.

Lenovo is not a good vendor for linux laptops. Unless you get a behemoth plug-to-plug W520, you have to accept at least one of the following major flaws:

1. Unsupported dual-mode graphics card.

2. Inability to use multiple monitors.

3. Some ports being unusuable.

4. Audio glitches.

5. Hand patching required to keep your laptop stable.

6. Poor support for X11 even with simple Intel integrated graphics.

And in all cases you will simply get atrocious battery life compared to the battery life available from the same system via windows.

People will tell you, "Oh I don't have a problem with my T61 or my T520," but their definition of "no trouble" is typically so riddled with the phrase, "Oh that doesn't work so I don't do it" that most laptops are reduced to underpowered desktops or doorstops.

Currently, there are no competitively priced linux laptops. This stems from a mix of vendor apathy and poor laptop support on Linux. If you would like to build a linux experience comparable to a mac osx or windows laptop with free software, it is currently either so expensive (Lenovo W520) or so difficult (T520) that it's almost certainly not worth your time.

You're better off using a competent VM solution to run Linux under Mac OS X and be able to enjoy a fully spectrum of modern hardware and battery life while still getting to use Linux (presumably for your development).

Note: And I sort of promised myself I wouldn't post here anymore, but on this one issue I hope this is the warning to someone that I personally never got. Don't try and make a linux laptop. It is a waste of your time and money.

Your points on the Thinkpads sound entirely valid - I merely meant that it's possible to get Linux pre-installed on a laptop with a decent form factor (Thinkpads haven't changed substantially in years, clearly they have some fans). I've only ever used Linux on W520s, so I guess I've got a bias.

> Currently, there are no competitively priced linux laptops.

I think ZaReason, System76, and ThinkPenguin all offer decent machines for prices that beat their Dell, HP, Sony, and Mac counterparts. It's just a question of whether or not their offerings meet your needs.

Using a Linux VM on a Mac (or Windows) is definitely a good solution.

> Using a Linux VM on a Mac (or Windows) is definitely a good solution.

Just to be crystal clear: I did not say it was a good solution. In fact, it's often wholly inadequate. However, it is better as a time investment than trying to get a workable Linux laptop solution.

I'm running the newest Ubuntu on my T410 and I'm not having any of those problems. I used to patch my xorg to get some extra middle button functionality, but even there the default was that it just worked like it did in Windows and with the newest Ubuntu everything worked just like I wanted out of the box.

Now, if you get the crappy Realtek wireless card instead of the Intel wireless, or you get Intel graphics that were released less than 6 months ago you can have serious problems, but if you know to avoid those two things you shouldn't have any trouble.

I've been running Ubuntu and windows on Thinkpads for years on the "that doesn't work so I don't do it" basis and am perfectly happy. So happy, in fact, that I can't even remember what feature doesn't work on my current machines, if any (X61 and R61). You make a valid point and certainly it would be wonderful to see better integration, but still: 1. performance certainly "feels" better than running windows on the same machines, 2. I spend my day typing and the MacBook's keyboard feels like going back to my ZX Spectrum 3. the 5-6 hours battery I get from an 8-cell are enough for me, thank you.

I'm glad you're happy with your box and have found a cost-effective way to use the OS you want to use.

I had different expectations shaped by my use of macbooks and trying to recreate feature parity with any Linux laptop as a basis was difficult enough to render it impossible.

P.S., I think it's pretty ugly that we only get 5-6 hours from the extended-cell batteries. With the extended batteries they're comparable to macbook pros not running extended batteries.

Fifteen years down the road there's nothing I regret more than the time spent fiddling with what would soon become obsolete technology for very little performance gain, if any. Nothing is perfect: you make a choice based on what's really important for you and commit to it, warts and all.

P.S. for the record, these are 30$ fake chinese extended-cell batteries I'm talking about ;) In the extremely rare cases where I need more than 5-6 hours autonomy, I carry a spare. If you have enough, why should you bother that there's something else out there that performs better?

I tend not to skimp on the cost of construction for my caustic, flammable energy storage medium.

thinkpad T420 user here running archlinux.

i agree with none of these points, actually, except #1, which i wouldn't know about because i'm not using dual-mode graphics card.

"2. inability to use multiple monitors" < incorrect. i use a docking station with a dell u2711 hooked up to it. pressing fn+f7 switches correctly between external, internal, and external+internal with no problems.

"3. some ports being unusable" < incorrect. every port on my thinkpad is usable, including the ports on the docking station.

"4. audio glitches" < incorrect. my audio works better with my u2711 (via display-port audio) than it does over my macbook air (via display-port audio). why? because i can control the volume via the volume control via linux+pulse whereas OSX artificially restricts me -- it tells me i can't control the audio levels via mini-display port unless i'm using an apple display.

"5. hand patching required to keep the laptop stable" < incorrect? by this, do you mean updates? don't all OSs benefit from updates? if you mean configuration, udev (now systemd-tools) found everything correctly on my thinkpad on the first go. this was the case when i recently ran ubuntu 12.04 off of a flash drive as well.

"6. poor support for X11 even with simple intel integrated graphics" < incorrect. i have the intel HD3000 on my thinkpad, which runs everything pretty much the same way that my macbook air (with the intel3000) runs them. flash video at fullscreen with no tearing, etc (in fact, flash runs better on linux than it does on my macbook).

regarding battery life, i did have to do a bit of tinkering there. but that's because i'm a bit power-consumption obsessed. i used powertop to show me what needed fine tuning, then wrote a power management script that changes my computer's parameters depending on whether it's plugged in. the result: an idle 7w power consumption (with wi-fi on). that's roughly the same power consumption i get from the macbook air, which is an ULV chipset. battery life for windows on my T420 is ~10 hrs. with linux,...~12hrs.

"no competitively priced linux laptops"? my T420 was $1000 with a 2520M processor, 1600x900 resolution display, 160GB intel SATA 3 SSD, and 8GB of RAM.

Exactly. My primary device is a daily updated (with aptitude) Debian testing on a T410 and have exactly none of the specified problems, though I too don't run a dual-mode graphics card. Not sure where the parent post got their info.

Lenovo took a big step down from IBM when they took over the brand, but for my money they are still the best non-mac laptops out there for a Linux user.

If they are "best" is immaterial. Linux is a poor laptop experience.

And you don't have a dual mode graphics card and probably only have VGA out, so you really don't have dual monitor support except in entirely unsatisfactory or projector contexts.

You also almost assuredly get battery life that is worse to a comparable windows 7 installation with Lenovo customizations.

  You also almost assuredly get battery life that
  is worse to a comparable windows 7 installation
  with Lenovo customizations.

Why is this though? This has been the case for a while, but I'm unclear as to what optimization happens on Windows/OSX that doesn't happen on Linux. It's usually attributed to the Windows/OSX manufacturer drivers, but what are those drivers doing differently? Anyone have even a general idea?

The most recent Linux kernels make big improvements there. My linux laptop battery life went from ~4hrs to ~8hrs when I upgraded from Ubuntu 11.10 to 12.04. The reason is a few patches added to the kernel in 2012:

http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/New-Linux-kernel-fixe...

That article is from Feb 2012 and mentions two big power-saving problems with the kernel, the first one patched, the second (RC6 power-saving feature in Sandy Bridge) unpatched as of the article's publish date. The second has since been patched as well, for huge power gain.

By the way, I agree that recently things can get better. I stopped trying to get the Linux laptops in Jan after about 5 months of wrangling.

Even with powertop and and eye for cutting things, odds are you are ending up with worse battery performance than a Lenovo-supported drop of Windows 7. Which is sad because it's not great battery life for not great performance, the T420 is also a pretty underpowered machine for developer use.

I'm not going to fisk your post otherwise. I have better things to do. I will point out that due to the way Lenovo updates models over time, it's entirely possible for mutiple people to buy "T420s" and end up with different-enough components that you'd need to tweak drivers to get things to work right. So "Your T420" may not be someone else's "T420."

This is provably the case for my T520, and supposedly the case for the T61.

Actually, you're mostly wrong on that last point. We are an enterprise customer of Lenovo's for both laptops & desktops and they are quite good about maintaining stability within a model range for at least 9-12mo, and they always tell us at least a quarter in advance of any changes... and they provide imaging services if a customer wants to pay for it (Windows or Linux). There's still enough IBM alive at Lenovo for them to care about engineers.

Their consumer facing division cared little for me or my problems. Evidently I didn't pay enough for support, even though my problems were all well within the first 90 days of purchase.

I've had some of the worst customer service I can imagine from them, both at the policy and individual level.

But it is ABSOLUTELY the case that my T520 has a slightly different configuration than most of the T520s I come across. There is no argument allowed here: this is fact. It's also ABSOLUTELY the case that Lenovo couldn't replace my latpop with a new one because I ordered a very popular processor option that was repeatedly out of stock. Twice now I've been offered replacement downgrades without even so much as an offer of credit. Twice I've refused, and twice I've gotten back a laptop with the same exact problem.

So perhaps I am just not enterprisey enough.

> the result: an idle 7w power consumption (with wi-fi on). that's roughly the same power consumption i get from the macbook air, which is an ULV chipset. battery life for windows on my T420 is ~10 hrs. with linux,...~12hrs.

That's pretty sweet. Any chance you could post that script on Github? I've been tweaking my linux laptop power settings too and would love to take a look at it.

Ahh, yes. Thanks for asking.

It occurred to me I probably should have included this info in my original post only after the window for editing it had passed. I'd previously written a bit about how to optimize the Thinkpad power consumption on another HN post here:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3564400

FYI, I find that the kernel flags are necessary even with the latest kernel. I'm currently on 3.3.8-1-ARCH and experimented with turning them off because the power regression that started in kernels > 2.6 was supposed to have been fixed and merged back into the kernel code. But I found that passing the pcie_aspm=force flag at boot time still results in a significant savings. Indicating that the regression (for at least my configuration) might still be there.

If you have an Intel video card, then check out the other kernel args I'm passing as well for additional power savings (and there are more parameters you can play with outlined here http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=intel...)

I experimented with a few different combinations before settling on the ones I posted in my HN link, but they're what gives me optimal battery life on my T420.

Despite what the other poster had said, I'm getting battery life now that's significantly better than what I get booting into Windows on the same machine, which usually stays at around 9-10 watts idle. I'm getting 6.8-7.8W

Without any optimization, my battery life was much less than I'd expected to get from the 9-cell (~7 hours). But with the power management script and the kernel flags, I can get 13 hours with light use and 10-11 while doing development (i.e. apache, mysqld, eclipse, multiple browsers, etc... all running).

edit: FYI powertop2 was the beta release of powertop at the time. the source has been merged back into powertop so you can just use that.

I can't stand this crap. Do you own a Thinkpad? I'm typing this on a T61 and items 2-6 on your list are complete garbage. I have never experienced any of those things. It's not that I just don't care, I do care. If that much was wrong, I wouldn't own the thing any more (as an aside, what the hell does "hand patching" even mean?)

As for item 1, this was dealt with in another thread a few days ago. Optimus can be made to work, but it isn't convenient (run a script then reboot to switch). But if you're planning to "build a Linux laptop", why would you buy one with Optimus? It actually causes problems on Windows too, speaking from personal experience.

Linux is not for everyone. Let me repeat that. Linux is not for everyone. But if you want to use Linux, which I do, there are excellent options for doing so at very reasonable prices and Thinkpads are an example of that.

I currently own a glitchy T520 that Lenovo has been increasingly reluctant to service as it periodically refuses to turn on. It's been in the shop 4 times.

2-6 on my list are not complete garbage, they're all problems I or other friends I've worked with have experienced with various Lenovo boxes over the last year or so. I actually got Bumblebee/Ironhide working on my T520 without issue, but I couldn't ever do what everyone else could do: get the DisplayPort out to drive an external display. So effectively I was limited to VGA-only for a second monitor (and running Ironhide in such a condition caused a system freeze).

Not acceptable. And the one game I do enjoy, Minecraft? Renders unreliably without Ironhide. So... yeah. I had display problems.

Not to mention despite the most assiduous reading of FAQs, consulting with powertop-savvy-friends, and appealing for help on twitter I never got more than four hours of light-use battery life from my T520 with the stock battery.

This, of course, ignores the nightmare ordering process, the late delivery, the snippy service, and the inability to FIX my machine despite having sent it back a few times now.

It's great you have managed to build a decent experience for your specific requirements. I'm glad, I don't wish my pain on anyone. And I really do wish it was better, I miss XMonad dearly. I miss a JVM with good performance dearly. I miss a sane linker dearly. But if your expectations are, "My laptop is fully supported and gets good battery life and does things a macbook would be good at doing" then you will be disappointed with Linux on the laptop, and Lenovo will not be an impressive vendor.

I apologize for the curt reply. There have been a number of these "Linux" threads lately on HN and the disinformation (on both sides) bugs me to no end. Clearly you've had some troubles and you have a right to be annoyed.

For reference, and perhaps for the use of others, Canonical maintains a list of hardware that works, along with information about what doesn't work. I have found it handy in the past. It can be found here: http://www.ubuntu.com/certification/desktop/

I agree. I'm in the market for a new notebook, however I strongly dislike the design of these machines.

This isn't to say that all non-Apple products have horrible aesthetics. Samsung stands out to me as a PC manufacturer that makes cool PC laptops. That said, I haven't worked with one so I have no way to evaluate the keyboard and general functionality.

However, the aesthetic look of the notebooks offered here is enough to put me off a purchase entirely - which is unfortunate.

Lenovo Thinkpads have very dedicated fans that have created drivers for almost everything. Installing Ubuntu 12.04 on my TP T61, there was zero configuration or hacking around needed. Every last wierd, unique or proprietary feature worked out of the box.

That being said, your point still stands. Official support is a lot better than unofficial support.

The new Thinkpads are a huge step backwards however. Lenovo screwed one of the defining qualities of the Thinkpad line by replacing the high-quality keyboards with chiclet island keys that also have a row of keys less than previously.

They also switched from 4:3 to 16:10 and now to 16:9 displays. The only resolution you can get the X-series thinkpads in is 1366x768. At least you can get 1600x900 displays for the T-series. (Which Lenovo ironically calls HD+)

It's almost like Lenovo WANTS me to switch to Apple.

Is there any way to fix the keyboards on the new Thinkpads? I read somewhere about some people replacing the keyboards on the last line of Thinkpads with more robust ones. I was thinking of getting one of the new ones but hearing this stuff about the keyboard is a real turnoff

What problem do you have with the chiclet keyboard on Thinkpad? For me, it is awesome, and ever since I started using one 18 months ago, my laptop buying criteria became "Is it a Thinkpad with chiclet keyboard?"

I am glad Lenovo switched all lines to chiclet keyboard in the latest refresh. I think it is a bold but calculated move.

While I generally prefer the classic keyshapes, my main problem with the new Thinkpad keyboards is the removed row.

Instead of the Insert/Delete/Home/End/PgUp/PgDown key block in the upper right corner, the keys are put into the function key row. This also means that the gaps between F4&F5 and F8&F9 are removed. They also removed the menu key and replaced it with Print for some reason.

With the old Thinkpads, you could just pick them up and start typing without having to learn too many idiosyncrasies of the laptop keymapping. This is not the case anymore. When you work both on a laptop and a regular keyboard, this gets really painful.

Good points. The changing keyboard layout can definitely be a source of frustration. My current Edge 11 has Insert/Delete/Home/End at the upper right corner. In the latest refresh, Lenovo changed the order to be Home/End/Insert/Delete, which in my opinion is less programming friendly.

Anyway, I am getting a E530 with full keypads so hopefully this won't be a problem.

They also switched from 4:3 to 16:10 and now to 16:9

I like the 16:10, but the drop in screen real estate going to 16:9 is too much for me. I ended up getting a Thinkpad W500 from a Lenovo outlet.

I'm tempted to go buy another and store while there's till a chance new ones can be found.

Looking at the ZaReason offerings I couldn't quite see who they are meant for. Poor resolution, no option for track point, these are not developer machines.

They did post about the screen aspect ratio issues on their blog. The problem is the panel manufacturers prefer those aspect ratios (they get more panels out of 16:9 than 16:10). The estimate was that Lenovo would need an advance order of tens of thousands to get the panel manufacturers to retool for the aspect ratios you and I want.

> It's almost like Lenovo WANTS me to switch to Apple.

Huh? Their 15" is 16:10 too. Lenovo lets you do 1920x1080 on their 15" while the highest resolution from Apple is 1680x1050. (The "HD+" resolution is the lowest Lenovo do, not the highest. Yes their mnemonics are stupid, and thankfully they actually clearly state the resolution these days.)

And the Thinkpads use non-glossy screens. For me that rules out everyone else.

http://blog.lenovo.com/perspectives/display-ratio-change-aga...

>Huh? Their 15: is 16:10 too. Lenovo lets you do 1920x1080 on their 15" while the highest resolution from Apple is 1680x1050.

At least they are 16:10. It's 16:9 all the way with the new Thinkpads. The 1920x1080 resolution is actually a step backwards. I currently own a 1920x1200 W500, sadly with a broken display backlight. Apple's highest resolution at the moment is 2880x1800, which is also 16:10.

I know that they have supply problems. It's just sad that the work-laptop line par-excellence can't even get enough supply for at least 16:10 displays.

The laptops are also getting physically larger. I checked the other day and the 14" T420/430 are ever so slightly larger than my several year old 15" T61, with the 15" T520/530 being quite a bit bigger. This matters because the T61 fits perfectly (just) in my favourite bag.

A few years ago I also bought what were probably the last 1920x1200 desktop monitors.

> sadly with a broken display backlight

Check out the sticky post on notebookreview:

http://forum.notebookreview.com/lenovo-ibm/638662-thinkpad-s...

You can enter you serial number and get the exact part numbers in order to get more, and then there are the hardware maintenance manuals which will tell you how to take everything apart. I've known people repair Lenovos very successfully this way. Your manual is here:

http://support.lenovo.com/en_US/guides-and-manuals/detail.pa...

Or you could turn your laptop into a sunlight readable model like Tridge did:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Cp5EpoVrLs

I've already attempted that. I've replaced the inverter and even the CCFL itself. Neither did help.

Apparently there is a fuse next to the Bluetooth model on the mainboard itself that can blow. In that case the only option is to either solder in a new one or replace the mainboard as a whole. None of them are really options for me.

I currently keep on working on the laptop using the docking station and have an eye out for a possible replacement. I guess that's also part of my current frustration with the new Thinkpad lineup.

I wonder what I'm doing wrong, then. Almost nothing on my T420 worked OOB. I've written custom acpi event scripts for handling docking, monitor switching, etc. Forget about the Function keys... (okay, that last part may be xmonad-related)

> ...will start to realise that people actually care about owning beautiful things.

Thanks for speaking for _everyone_, but no. It's just most people are really superficial. The end.

Hardware manufacturers need to be as superficial in order to compete with Apple, however, part of me thinks that it will just turn consumer computing into a boring homogeneous set of devices across all manufacturers.

'superficial' is not the right word for what Apple does.

An Apple machine is really very utilitarian and simple. It's a box with rounded corners and tapered edges. Pop off the screws and the case itself provides the structure for the machine. No extra structural support. The bulk of the material is also recyclable.

If you look at other computers, especially before the brushed aluminium trend, it was everyone else that had fancy sculpting on their enclosures, the keyboards, fancy personalisations. Just look at the machines linked. And they all needed extra stuff on the inside to provide a skeleton.

Apple machines certainly look good (why do we think grey boxes with round corners and tapered edges look good?), but they have also thought about manufacturing, engineering, materials, disposal etc ...

'part of me thinks that it will just turn consumer computing into a boring homogeneous set of devices across all manufacturers.'

Isn't that where the PC world is now?

Hardly. None of the following look very similar to each other.

- http://us.acer.com/ac/en/US/content/series/aspire-timelinex

- http://www.dell.com/us/p/xps-l702x/pd

- http://store.sony.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisp...

- http://usa.asus.com/Notebooks/

How about rebuttal instead of a downvote?

When you say design, do you mean surface appearance?

Or do you mean quality of engineering and thought put into making the machine? Those are two different things.

Industrial design covers both the appearance and the utilitarian aspects, IIRC. What Apple does is usually qualified as industrial design. That's not to say that they are perfect, but there is greater attention to detail (and not just visible detail) than other manufacturers.

Actually, Linus doesn't use a MBA because it is beautiful. He uses it because it is thin, light and portable.

When it comes to a developer laptop I can really care less about design, slimness, even weight.

The most important things for me are

    A matte screen
    Excellent keyboard
    Large resolution for large amount of screen real estate
    SSD
    Good CPU & RAM
    And built solid/well

That being said it's really difficult to find that sort of combination in anything other than a Mac

agreed. I thought this article was a joke or something in response to the new apple products. Looking at their website design, never mind product design just hurts my eyes now.

I don't know about US, but in other countries there are so many laptops that come "Windows-free" (and save you ~$150). Unfortunately most of them come with the completely useless FreeDos instead of a usable Linux distro. I really don't get that at all. What's stopping them from using Linux instead of FreeDos?

I've never seen that in the US. All the laptops I've ever seen for sale in person (rather than online) either came with some version of Windows or Mac OS. So we not only lack Linux here, we lack anything outside of Apple and Microsoft.

FreeDos seems rather specialized and would not suit a casual consumer at all. Perhaps those laptops just have a different target market? I really can't imagine anybody but a hobbyist actually wanting to buy that. Also, perhaps people just buy those laptops to install Windows in some questionably legal way?

The FreeDos thing has something to do with some obscure rules about having to sell computers with an OS. No is expected to actually use FreeDos, and in fact the reason they use FreeDos rather than, say, Ubuntu, is to make sure no one does run it, and thus not having to offer support.

Likely Microsoft strong-arming. Some unspoken (because formal threats are anti-trust-bait) threats about "sell linux and your per-unit licensing costs will skyrocket".

Most people who actively want Linux are content to install it themselves. They don't pre-install Linux because nobody really cares, and they don't want to deal with supporting it. They ship with FreeDOS in many cases because they have an OEM agreement with MS that forbids shipping computers with no OS.

Cynical view: Preinstalling Linux would create expectations that all their hardware have readily available, working, non-buggy Linux drivers. Preinstalling FreeDOS sets up no such expectations (especially since basically everyone will blow it away immediately).

These may be functional and fully Linux-compatible and whatever, but the key for me is this: does its trackpad compare to that of the MacBook Pro?

Oh, it doesn't? You mean I'll have to carry around an external mouse to compensate for the lackluster trackpad? You mean one of the two ways I interact with my computer is clunky at best and non-functional at worst compared to the best one on the market?

Sorry. No dice.

I'm glad I'm not the only one perplexed by the utterly astoundingly bad trackpad drivers on literally every platform but OSX. I just don't get it. How can so many people working on trackpad software produce such sub-par junk, while Apple's is literally competitive to (if not better than in some cases) a desktop mouse.

I don't know about Windows folks, but as a Linux user I rarely touch the mouse except while using a web browser, and point-and-click is all I need there. In fact my Thinkpad has a convenient middle mouse button just above the track pad that's super-convenient for opening links in a new tab.

For me, Samsung's Chromebook still makes the best linux laptop. Great form factor, battery life, and screen.

is it easy to get, say, ubuntu on them?

There are still a lot of hoops to jump through for handling development on a Chromebook. That said, for a browser and general non-development machine - I agree that the newer Chromebooks have a lot to offer.

So you like slow machines? I gave up using mine and sold it... it's nice that it was cheap, but I feel like I can't do anything on it other than vim. I prefer only carrying around one laptop, so I'd rather get the laptop that can do everything.

Their tag line is Linux Laptop that "just works". What does that imply about Linux? What's even sadder is that the implication is not even true. Linux these days not only "just works", but has more functionality out of the box than a stock Windows machine.

> Linux these days not only "just works"

1) Try to make it sleep. (and wake up correctly)

2) Try to make it hibernate. (and wake up correctly)

3) Try to rotate a second screen into portrait mode while maintaining vsync and compositing. (choose any GPU for this, they all fail)

When you can do those 3 things reliably without fumbling around, breaking between upgrades, or even just do them (3 especially), I'll happily switch back to linux as a primary OS and say that it just works.

Also, make proper use of graphics switching. I live with intel integrated graphics and won't even bother to try and switch to my ati because after about two weeks of searching forums when I got the laptop, I just gave up. This means, among other things, that I don't get to have webGL.

Still, Linux all the way since everything else is awesome!

Am I imagining that the latest linux kernel added support for this?

Maybe you were just lucky that your combination of hardware was supported. In my experience, you'll need the latest kernel with some patches from other people, and you'll still have to configure with something like make menuconfig to get the proper options to work.

Sure, all you have to do is type `sudo vim /etc/acpid/handle.sh` and learn basic shell scripting...

In my experience, Linux hibernation problems are down to not allocating enough swap space. I don't know if Ubuntu Precise makes a large enough swap file on the default installation - I always go the manual route (fumbling around), since I always have had hibernation problems otherwise.

I've had 1 & 2 work reliably for a while on laptops under Linux, but this tends to vary from model to model, unfortunately. I've been able to get 3 to work on my work setups under Mac Mini running Ubuntu and a POS Dell desktop running Ubuntu (though the Dell had obscure USB issues related to the motherboard chipset that were apparently worked around w/ the Windows driver, but not in Linux... Basically the hardware was crap so they fixed it in post^Wsoftware). Both were NVidia chipsets, IIRC.

I respectfully disagree. It may "just work" on thoroughly tested hardware configurations, however as a blanket statement that is simply not true.

Anecdotal illustration : I'm writing this from a machine running Xubuntu because of a relatively obscure Unity bug wherein the X server fails sporadically while, say, loading a text file. This most likely is a compatibility issue relating to my graphics card.

TLDR; I'm a fan, but it doesn't "just work".

To me, it's a very attractive idea: that someone has gone through the work to ensure a working combination of hardware for Linux. That's not trivial when you start getting into peripherals.

In my ideal world, they'd maintain a custom set of drivers that could be updated on Arch, Gentoo, or a Debian variant.

I'd buy it, keep it updated, and never have to tweak. Like my desktops.

Seriously, is there a patent on centering the trackpad? Center the trackpad, center the keyboard, and do not put a numeric keypad on unless you have found a way for me to type while still looking straight at the display.

It looks like they have aligned it with the home keys, which seems rather sensible.

Which means the home keys are out of position. I want to sit dead center of the screen, not at an angle.

I don't know if it is just me or their laptops look mondo ugly - may be they just need a better website.

The world is moving towards polished aluminum etc. while we see these clunky models - I really hope they put more thought into making the laptops more aesthetic.

> The world is moving towards polished aluminum etc.

I sure hope it isn't. The future cannot possibly be so grim and cold to touch.

It's funny how pre-conditioned some commenters are to love shiny&sparkly things. Many complained about "ugly" but nobody noticed the poorly positioned cheap touchpads, cheap glossy LCDs, flimsy lid hinges, excessive weight, you know... stuff that actually matters. Of all things missing you're only asking for "more aesthetic"? :)

I was under impression that laptop without Windows/MacOS on it should cost less. Apparently it's not the case here. I don't really see any competitive advantage vs. Dell, HP, Toshiba, etc.

As successors to the Verix 2.5 and the damn-near-a-desktop Chimera, the Verix 530 and Mir 730 updates are both available with up to i7-3920XM (2.9Ghz) and can be configured with up to 32GB of RAM. They come in a lot cheaper than those new MBPs, too (but retina displays are nice).

I haven't used either, but I see good things about ZaReason, and I have been a little disappointed in my System76 Desktop (though I did heavily customize).

  They come in a lot cheaper than those new MBPs, too

That is simply not true.

Configured approximately the same as the cheaper Retina MBP, the verix cost $200 more than the retina macbook pros.

I say approximately because the mbp has 1600MHz ram vs 1333 in the verix, but I had to choose a 300GB SSD in the verix vs 256 in the mbp. As well, the verix option was for a 2.2GHz vs 2.3GHz of the MBP.

That was the cheaper MBP. Configuring the verix to match the costlier Retina MBP puts the Verix at $500 more.

Good point, thanks for the correction.

I neglected to consider the flash storage costs in my initial glances. If you avoid a large flash drive (I usually run something like a 40GB ssd and a 256GB 7200RPM paired), the pricing leans towards the Verix, but not by much - and you aren't getting the same flash storage.

  Verix: Dimensions: 15.6" (w) x 10.5" (d) x 2.2" (h) Weight: 7.10 lbs
  MBP: Dimensions: 14.13" (w) x 9.73" (d) x 0.71" (h) Weight: 4.46 lbs

A plastic monstrosity. For me, this is a non-starter at any price.

Yeah, flash is still super pricey. I run a pair as well in my mbp. The ability to configure lesser options to make it cheaper counts for something as well.

With Apple you are stuck with very few yet pricey base configurations to start from.

I have a Sony Vaio Core II Duo laptop. I bought it 2 or 3 years ago. The thing runs Linux great. I don't know why all the hardware works including suspend/resume. Maybe it's just old enough that the Linux community finally got around to supporting everything on it. It's a Sony too, so it has adequate design. Those Thinkpads are ugly.

Just came to say, Earl at ZaReason is great, they always treated me with respect and went the extra mile.

This is just an ad for some run of the mill laptops.

With open hardware and amazing customer support.

"everyone should have a laptop this advanced"

Now where have I heard that sentence before?

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