Radar evidence of accessible Moon cave conduit below Mare Tranquillitatis pit | Hacker News Reader

Radar evidence of accessible Moon cave conduit below Mare Tranquillitatis pit

nature.com

146 pointsrntn63 comments

Found this at least [1]: "In 2010, as part of the ongoing Luna Reconnaissance Orbiter (LRO) NASA mission, the Miniature Radio-Frequency (Mini-RF) instrument acquired data that included a pit in Mare Tranquilitatis,” said Professor Lorenzo Bruzzone in a statement. “Years later we have reanalysed these data with complex signal processing techniques we have recently developed, and have discovered radar reflections from the area of the pit that are best explained by an underground cave conduit. This discovery provides the first direct evidence of an accessible lava tube under the surface of the Moon."

[1] https://www.iflscience.com/the-first-cave-has-been-found-on-...

I can't help but think of the Moon is a Harsh Mistress every time I hear this news.

I think it sounds more like The Lotus Caves: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lotus_Caves

There ain't no such thing as a free caves!

So we're now saying the specific type of cheese that the moon is made from is Swiss?

It's Wensleydale, as documented in "A Grand Day Out".

That documentary was full of holes.

This has long been suspected due to the spheroidal indentations in the lunar surface.

This is a remnant of the Great Fondue period shortly after the moon’s creation.

Yes, but who cut the cheese?

That would be the vending machine on the skis.

NAC Imagery of one such pit in Mare Tranquillitatis

https://quickmap.lroc.asu.edu/layers?prjExtent=941477.606759...

cool site

I suppose the Artemis III landing location is probably set in stone at the south pole, and even if it weren't, there probably wouldn't be enough time to explore a cave. Maybe we can get some hopping pit-bots there sooner rather than later:

https://arxiv.org/abs/1701.07799

Similarly the Chinese program is so far only planning for landings and a moon base at the south pole. But I wouldn't be surprised if China squeezes in an extra manned or rover mission to investigate this. It'd be a pretty cheap win for their Moon program over Artemis.

I imagine there is a massive benefit to trying to secure and claim this cave before others have a chance to. Turn key Cheyenne mountain complex on the moon with little complex lunar excavation required? Yes please, says every nations strategic space command at once. I wouldn't be surprised if there were more such sites, undisclosed for fear of competition settling on the site, but already identified for future basebuilding purposes.

Yep, I'm looking forward to seeing how China (and maybe their Russian partners) develops the Moon and the resources there, and seeing how this affects economies and the power balance here on Earth. Because the western countries certainly aren't going to succeed in getting there first.

What resources? There is nothing that we want on it that is economical to extract and use.

As far as we know there is little that's economical to bring back to earth. There are quite possibly enormous iron and nickel reserves from meteor impacts (e.g. [1]). Mining them for use on earth isn't that interesting, but if you want to build large structures in space (or on the moon) having metal that far out of earth's gravity well is pretty valuable.

And then there are the unknown unknowns. We spend a lot of time prospecting earth, and haven't spent all that much prospecting the moon. This will be much easier with boots on the ground. And while the moon's lack of geological activity means it isn't good at concentrating resources, it also means remains from impact events remain much more reachable and concentrated than on earth.

1: https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2019GL08...

Claiming that iron reserves on the moon are valuable because they make it easier to maintain control of the iron reserves on the moon isn't going to convince many people, and zero competent people.

Iron reserves on the moon / asteroid / space are only going to become valuable once there is a reason to mine, smelt and forge in space, outside of Earth's gravity well. So if we can ever get say giant space ships and space stations built in space, sure. But unfortunately, that looks unlikely this century.

Agreed. But at least the School of Mines is thinking ahead: https://space.mines.edu/

Don't know why you are being downvoted... I've noticed that this whole asteroid mining (or really mining of any extraterrestrial body at all for that matter) has almost reached meme levels of hysteria here on hackernews... I too don't understand it.

It might not be economical to ship it back to Earth. But launching from the Moon is far cheaper than launching from Earth, so if there is ever a significant demand for materials in Earth orbit it makes sense to supply from the Moon.

This is so far off, though. Whatever raw materials you mine from the Moon need to be refined and then you probably need to manufacture something from them, with any other components of the manufactured product being imported from Earth. Not saying there would never be a plausible scenario, but it's so far off, with nothing even resembling a hypothetical plan at this stage.

The moon has helium-3 which would be useful for fusion. Getting it back to earth would be easier than getting off earth, you have the possibility of cargo rail guns which only needs materials to fire which you can source on the moon.

It would be nice if we lived in a world where demand for helium-3 for fusion existed.

We don't, though.

I for one honestly think that now the race's begun in earnest ...

(Not for lack I am sure, and, as mentioned, of comparable as-of-now secret comparable sites already known about ...

... but because public knowledge of at least this one makes for vox populi pressure uoon spacefaring actors.-

Here’s my not-tongue-in-cheek Moonball deck. https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/16QpeWjf1Hbxp_15D5Vtx...

And speaking of races on the moon: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/quirks/moon-walls-running-1.7192281

Interesting deck that shows moon caves are not a new concept at all. I’m surprised this hasn’t shown up in more sci-fi movies by now… slides 11 and 16 are quite compelling!

Now how do we know there isn’t anyone there already… ;)

Please do post, particularly the Moonball link, more widely :)

Totally. I can't wait for the photos at some point. The caves must have just moved to somebodies shortlist.

This would also change the mars vs moon colony equation. A ready made radiation shelter of substantial volume means none of that shielding or digging equipment would need to be brought from Earth. Move-in ready.

There likely are lava tubes on Mars too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martian_lava_tube

There is a little bit more info at https://www.media.inaf.it/2024/07/15/tubi-lavici-lunari/ (in Italian)

I always love it when new science is done with old observations

I mean, this is why some untouched rock samples from the moon missions were supposed to be kept in sealed airtight containers for decades to come - so future scientists could use better techniques

Could you imagine being the first person to ever explore an underground cave system on another planet?

On Mars, maybe stromatolites or other bacteria live in these caves!

> Could you imagine being the first person to ever explore an underground cave system on another planet?

I think there's a documentary on that: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0078748/

more appositely https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Men_in_the_Moon_(1964_fi...

if we do find a note in the cave saying claimed on behalf of Queen Victoria...probably best to leave.

> they discover a battered Union Jack flag on the surface and a handwritten note, dated some 65 years earlier, claiming the moon on behalf of Queen Victoria. Stranger still, the note is written on the back of a court summons for one Katherine Callender from the village of Dymchurch in England.

This reads like the beginning of a Doctor Who episode.

Nigel Kneale, who wrote the screenplay, famously wrote Quatermass, so you're in the right area - that was a big influence on early Who. Kneale hated the idea of Doctor Who though, and refused to write for it - he said "It sounded a terrible idea and I still think it was." (specifically, he hated that it was designed to frighten small children)

I’d never heard that it was designed to frighten children, but it tracks, I have vivid memories of it as a kid!

Hell I'm still majorly spooked by The Waters of Mars.

Hollywood has made lots of movies where this person then goes on to inadvertently kill us all when they get home to earth. Or crash-land, or ..

The best part of caving as a sport and science is that you can find and explore virgin systems here on Earth still.

There's a really good documentary movie about this too: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0435625/

It was probably visited by the Annunaki living on planet X

I guess we'll need to develop climbing equipment for astronauts. It's a 120m wall with a 25m cave under it.

I'm also betting the cave has a sizeable ice trap in it.

Get on your NASA minibike [0] and gain enough momentum to ride up the cave wall and out of the hole.

[0] https://pulispace-blog-hu.translate.goog/2012/03/31/a_holdmo...

The wall is quite vertical. You can drive a screw-like trajectory on the walls if you are fast enough.

Maybe something like this?

https://youtube.com/watch?v=qL1WqN1XKK0&pp=ygUdU3RhcnRyZWsgN...

We could also go retro:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYsSsdplqLg

NASAs space-grade version was a bit bulkier, but same idea

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvnC--JjDBw

Sadly the modern space version is far less useful because of safety concerns.

lunar gravity

and a jetpack

Why aren't these findings or studies published as blog format? You'd think these would be available to humanity in 2024.

This sounds like the film The Silent Sea unfolding..

I hate it when scientific results are behind a paywall.

Results that we, the taxpayers, already paid for.

Email the authors. They tend to be happy to share copies.

Would be cool if there were some sort of world wide… connection system of some sort so the authors could share their data without needing to respond to individual emails.

Have you done this yourself?

I've tried it in the past after reading a blog post about its effectiveness. I am yet to receive a response.

Yes, with this paper in fact. Leonardo responsed pretty quickly lol

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