Comment by glzone1 | Hacker News Reader

Comment by glzone1 | Hacker News Reader

Some context.

Refrigerator was 4 years old and out of stated warranty period

Refrigerator not sold to them by samsung or installed by samsung but by another party ("JB Hi-Fi").

Despite being out of warranty, family offered a refund - they declined it. An expert has called Samsungs behavior "concerning and unfair".

Notes:

Plenty of folks ignore almost all maintenance steps (cleaning coils, filter changes etc). Pulling the covers and looking around and cleaning even 1x per year would help longevity and catch problems earlier in many cases.

Having purchased appliances both personally and for a business - first call is usually to the store that sold us the item. These things are the one thing we get an extended warranty on.

The installers are absolutely not licensed plumbers or electricians! I wouldn't be surprised if a fair bit of damage is caused just in getting these items to their locations and installed. They are heavy and awkward.

Ask the repair tech who comes for first repair what most common issue is they are repairing - they often know right away (because they stock the parts etc etc). Some are avoidable / manageable.

The issue here isn't the cost of the fridge, it's the health impact. Declining a mere refund (that almost certainly comes with a waiver on other claims in addition to the gag clause) is the only reasonable thing to do, and I doubt that being out of warranty absolves Samsung from liability if they sold a dangerous product.

How do you know there's a health impact, or that this is a dangerous product?

The article has nothing supporting either of those claims in it.

The oil they use in refrigerators stinks to high heaven, and that's about it. "POE that has been exposed to moisture can emit a strong odor which I would say is closer to dirty socks".

https://www.mountsinai.org/health-library/poison/refrigerant...

Those symptoms are mixing refrigerants, fumigants, and the frostbite from refrigerants expanding.

It means nothing in the context of this article. The refrigerant at hand here is R-134a and has zero health risks, in fact it's used in inhalers.

> the company wasn't able to tell him what the chemical was or whether it could be harmful.

Odd how you are confident that you know what the chemical is when the company that manufactured the product doesn't.

And you don't need to know that there's a health impact to decline this settlement, you need to not know that there isn't. If there's even a small risk it's an extremely lowball offer. Especially given that according to another commenter here Australian law likely entitles them to that much without the NDA and release of liability.

The company knows what is in there. The company doesn't know what exactly they smelled since that smell is a product of chemical reaction between refrigerant, oil, plastic and electronics. The refrigerant itself, as it's mentioned in the article, doesn't smell.

Depending on the refrigerant used it might smell and be substantially more dangerous if it combusts. R1234yf turns into carbonyl fluoride when ignited, which is close to phosgene the WW1 poison gas.

>more dangerous if it combusts. R1234yf turns into carbonyl fluoride when ignited, which is close to phosgene the WW1 poison gas.

Sounds scary, but is there any reason to believe this actually would occur?

For instance, wikipedia lists "a propellant for the delivery of pharmaceuticals (e.g. bronchodilators), wine cork removers, gas dusters ("canned air")" as other uses for it. If it's really as dangerous at it's made out to be, shouldn't we be hearing more about this causing issues from other uses?

Maybe Samsung should FA the unit and tell us?

> Sounds scary, but is there any reason to believe this actually would occur?

A shitty Samsung fridge with a stalling compressor causing heat to build up? Frayed wires? Lots of possibilities.

I researched this for the first time after I had a compressed air get ignited by a spark while I was cleaning an appliance. It is absolutely a noxious smell and I had to evacuate the room.

As far as I know, that may be false for other than EU markets, R1234yf is used in airconditioners, not fridges. And it requires about 900C to combust. If it reached such temperatures in my house then carbonyl fluoride would be the last concern I would worry about.

I don't know about standing fridges yet, but I have seen at least a chest freezer in the US using R1234yf.

I would assume that arcing could easily reach such temperatures locally without necessarily causing a fire (just like a laser cutter will turn basically anything not laser safe into deadly poison gas without igniting a self-sustaining fire).

"Dirty socks" is commonly how fume events on aircraft are described to smell, which is when oil from the engine makes it into the air conditioning system.

The health effects aren't fully understood, with claims ranging from them being harmless to causing severe neurological defects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fume_event

The health impact they may have inflicted themselves when they went to take out the food.

If there is a chemical smell - open all windows, ventilate the room and STAY AWAY. That's a very basic and simple rule.

Australian consumer law means you generally don't need to bother with the "extended warranty" scam: https://www.choice.com.au/shopping/consumer-rights-and-advic...

A fridge has to be of acceptable quality, safe, and one of the tests applied is durability - how long would an average consumer expect the product to last?

Fridges are commonly expected to last 6-12 years (ATO, consumer group advice)

Correct. Strictly speaking Australian consumers don't really need a warranty, which is a voluntary undertaking by a business to guarantee certain rights, unless that warranty exceeds those guarantees provided for in Australian consumer law. In this case the family is automatically entitled to repair, replacement, refund or cancellation for a reasonable time, where "reasonable" depends on the product or service as determined by the ACCC or the courts.

>where "reasonable" depends on the product or service as determined by the ACCC or the courts.

Is there a table of warranty lengths by product published by the ACCC? If not it seems like a regulatory nightmare because neither consumers nor manufacturer knows what their rights/obligations are. At least with standard warranties you know what you're getting into.

There isn’t a definitive list, only vague guidelines: https://consumer.gov.au/sites/consumer/files/inline-files/ac...

The price you paid relative to comparable products factors into it - more expensive goods are expected to last longer.

If you and the manufacturer disagree, you can always take it to tribunal to get a decision (and manufacturers never want it to get there so are motivated to resolve your concern before it comes to that).

Installers don't need to be licensed plumbers or electricians. A refrigerator is a huge self-contained "appliance" with a power cord that is designed to be inserted into a wall receptacle and water plumbing connections that are designed to be installed similarly to a clothes washing machine. You can literally buy one yourself, screw the water connection(if needed) on and plug it into the wall. The only things you should not let the installer do is put a tap on a water line for the fridge or add or modify the receptacle. But provided you've already had a plumber or electrician in to do those things there's no need to spend the extra money to pay a tradesperson to open the refrigerator box and plug it in.

And to wit, every single refrigerator I've used has recommended maintenance that nobody ever does, and they have still lasted multiple decades. You don't even actually have to change the compressor oil like they tell you you should.

How is it relevant where they bought it or who installed it? If there was a problem with install, you would expect the failure to show up early, not five years later.

You mention maintenance items… There’s no reason a fridge sold in 2019 couldn’t include maintenance monitoring and a 7-segment error display. The filter needs a change? The coil is hot? Ok tell the human. My Miele washer and dryer do it.

Samsung appliances are garbage, I would never buy another one.

I bought a $3000 fridge from them and I can only assume the ice maker was, at best, designed by someone with an MBA. Instead of having a cavity that is part of the mold (like a previous model), they just bolted it in to the fridge side. Obviously humid air leaks in and ices it over every week.

Hahah.. "How is it relevant where they bought it or who installed it?"

Very relevant in many cases. Maybe you have experts installing things who read the instructions, but I'd say more installs then not have some kind of install error.

Super common but maybe not so serious including leveling issues, then clearance issues for all sorts of items but particularly affecting items that need heat exchange or ventilation. Then onto electrical / wiring screw ups, then install damage of various sorts.

People are buying very complex devices now, coupled with cost savings efforts by MFGs (everything built to basically minimal tolerance) and these are not you grandparents refrigerator anymore. By the time the items gets to your house it may have been VERY roughly treated - on and off a truck to the store, around the store, on and off a truck to your house, into your house etc etc. In many cases the installers are paid dirt money basically and these are big awkward heavy items.

This is a safety issue, warranty is not relevant.

Samsung also recalled a huge number of out of warranty phones due to significant safety risk of bad batteries. This should be investigated as a safety issue.

The whole article is about the lack of transparency on a situation involving a product Samsung designed which may or may not have serious health consequences, not about return policies

Is Samsung not using R-134a or R600a for refrigerant? This usually depends on market and regulations.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com