Hacker News Reader

You're being aggressively unfair and selective in how you interpreted his comment. Why don't you go through the reasons WHY he thought his purchases were beautiful, most beautiful, stunningly beautiful, truly good, beautiful, simple, high quality, high-quality, feel good? His Macbook air is completely silent and has a screaming fast SSD. He likes garage tools that feel good in the hand and that don't break when using them. These are perfectly practical and valid reasons to like one's tools that have nothing to do with brand tribalism or hero worship.

I'm not talking about computers and I have no interest in going through a laundry list of marketing claims for any computer. Many computers are silent and SSDs are fast in general. People are entitled to do what they want with their money and if it gives them joy then that is great.

Wow, what a comment. People use to argue that Apple's products weren't higher quality than competitors, and people just bought them "because of the marketing." Now that the higher quality is unanimously agreed upon, you're arguing that even liking a higher quality product is just marketing. It's a great lesson for us all that some people will never stop digging.

"Wow, what a comment."

No one could even claim unanimity inside the apple user pool regarding that, let alone outside. Better use some relativity rather than portraying oneself as someone wrapped up by the marketing message.

The children here are potentially misinterpreting this. I don't see this comment as being judgmental. The fact that Apple has accomplished this does NOT mean that the poster is saying Apple adherents are mindless drones or fanboys.

What's inherently wrong with "brand tribalism" or "proof of discerning taste"?

I read this is a tribute to Apple, nothing more.

You are right. I am saying Apple's branding is masterful. I'm not saying that Apple products are bad or that the people who buy them are stupid. I'm not saying anything about those because I don't think there is anything interesting to say; I only see computers and people buying computers. Brand tribalism is a great thing if you can get it for your product.

>The purchase is not merely an exchange of money for a product that gives pleasure or does what it's expected to. It certainly isn't the guilty pleasure of someone who recognizes that they are consuming more than they really need to. No, it has a kind of ceremonial importance. It is a badge of social honor and distinction, a proof of discerning taste which sets the buyer apart from the grubby masses and puts them in the company of Personalities even as they enjoy the new-box smell and savor the kinds of product claims that we are jaded to in most advertising.

Mumbo jumbo --are you into "french social theory"?

I, for one, used OS X when it was quite a novelty (10.2 days), and I use it now that everybody and his dog uses it. Neither popularity nor exclusivity has anything to do with it.

I don't care about "badges of social honor", I _do_ care that it's a fucking full blown UNIX with all the commercial programs I need also available, and that doesn't require constant tinkering to get basic things like close-lid/sleep or GPU acceleration or multimedia working. That the hardware is well made also counts for a lot.

Nothing about "blindly buying a brand". Apple can also make flops: pre mighty mouse Apple mice, Apple TV, the Finder, XCode, FCP X 1.0, Safari (ho hum), pricy adapters, and lots of other things.

There are like 100,000,000 million Apple stuff owners in the US.

You seriously believe those are 100 million fanboys???? (not to mention that if your explanation includes "mass hysteria" then you have to know you're talking BS). They are just people that bought a specific fucking brand, because that what they wanted to buy, given the alternatives. The "reality distortion field", "fanboys" etc, mostly BS from people trying to justify being cheapskates, or feeling some envy for others that can afford more expensive gear.

Your post illustrates Apple's success.

Perceiving a criticism of Apple, you jump in with both feet. Clearly Apple isn't just something you bought. You start with a pointedly personal comment, so it seems that you took the comments about Apple personally.

You used OS X before it was cool, proving that your purchases were not about jumping on a bandwagon and that exclusivity has nothing to do with it.

You enumerate virtues of Apple products, in defense of your purchases. You clearly see no reasonable alternatives to them; indeed, you were forced by the total inferiority of other products. Consider what this implies about the people who buy other brands: they lack discernment, or they are poor.

You clarify that you are not buying blindly. I didn't say anything about this, so it is clearly important to you. I understand: your purchase was based on the great virtues of the product which set it apart from the competition. And your purchases set you apart from the people who buy other things.

I don't know what you are talking about when you get into fanboys and mass hysteria. I gather that you are responding to some tribal enemy, because you go on to accuse them of being cheapskates or envious people. Very personal!

People always take OS criticism personally. Some more than others. You could switch out Mac for Windows or any other platform and it wouldn't matter. I think he's just using OS X as a point of reference because it's what he uses. Yeah, I could see a little bit of taking your comment personally in there but he still makes a good point. Furthermore, your attack of Apple seems just as much like a justification for your own choices as anyone's defense of any platform seems like a justification of theirs. It's really hard to not take this stuff personally, especially for developers, because our choice of platform becomes part of our identity. I don't know of any other profession where you get so close and attached to your tools; choosing them, configuring them, getting an efficient workflow down. I always wondered why we get so religious about our choice of technologies but after realizing this it's not hard to understand anymore.

>Your post illustrates Apple's success. Perceiving a criticism of Apple, you jump in with both feet. Clearly Apple isn't just something you bought. You start with a pointedly personal comment, so it seems that you took the comments about Apple personally.

Nice try, Freud, you only forgot that this is a public forum, and jumping "with both feet" into discussions is what we _do_ here. I participate into most of the discussions, and I like to leave "pointedly personal comments" all the time.

>You enumerate virtues of Apple products, in defense of your purchases. You clearly see no reasonable alternatives to them; indeed, you were forced by the total inferiority of other products. Consider what this implies about the people who buy other brands: they lack discernment, or they are poor.

Or they just don't have the same needs as mine, Sherlock. Haven't thought of that, eh?

I studied CS in mid-nineties, so I run Linux at the time, and I wanted a usable UNIX for Python/Java work that could also run MS Office and audio/MIDI sequencing programs (my hobby). So, I need to run: UNIX + Adobe CS + (Reason||Logic||Cubase). If you can take a minute from your psychology for dummies manual to find me a better OS X alternative for those, I would be grateful...

>You clarify that you are not buying blindly. I didn't say anything about this, so it is clearly important to you.

Oh, I see what you did here. Are you still in high school, and just discovered this "pop psychology" thing? You wrote a whole comment implying people are idiots and/or caught on the marketing hype for buying Apple, even calling it "brand tribalism", and now suddenly you "didn't say anything about this". Well, you did.

>I understand: your purchase was based on the great virtues of the product which set it apart from the competition. And your purchases set you apart from the people who buy other things.

Seems like you're trying hard to feel superior to other people because you're ...not feeling superior to them. Like, people are generally misguided to feel superior based on their purchases but your deep insight cuts through all that bullshit. Well, whatever makes you feel good.

>I don't know what you are talking about when you get into fanboys and mass hysteria.

What I was talking about is that the common "fanboy" accusation ("Apple purchasers are fanboys") makes no sense when talking about 100 million people. And neither do incoherent BS notions like the "reality distortion field", like millions of consumers suddenly had some kind of mass hysteria and couldn't see reality anymore.

How about: people evaluate what they need, what they can afford and what they want and buy accordingly?

>I gather that you are responding to some tribal enemy, because you go on to accuse them of being cheapskates or envious people.

You gather wrong. Reading comprehension is a bitch, though, so I sympathize. What I say is that people that talk ill of people buying Apple, with BS notions (from your dime-a-dozen pop-psychology, to the "fanboy" or Reality Distortion Field accusations), are probably either envious or cheapskates. For, if you are not envious, then you don't even care what others buy or not. Oh, and you keep using this word "tribe". I don't think it means what you think it means.

The "reality distortion field", "fanboys", etc, mostly BS from people trying to justify being cheapskates, or feeling some envy for others that can afford more expensive gear"

I agree that it's BS but I don't think the reason is mostly about envy or cheapness. I believe it's about feeling superior for not using the expensive trendy thing. It's a way of saying "I'm good at my job and more skilled than you are which is why a MacBook is beneath me. I prefer the Linux machine because I'm one of the elites who knows how to really use it".

People are just religious about their OS, even the ones who claim not to be and go off on diatribes about whatever gear being too expensive or just trendy. I'm a Mac and Xubuntu user who has recently been forced to develop on Windows while at work and I can say that beauty is important and the Mac exudes beauty. Win7 is decent too. But I bring it up because as a user of all 3 OSes I'll often get asked what I develop on. Instead of explaining in detail how I use all 3 at different times and appreciate each for their specific upsides I'll usually just say "Mac" or "Linux". No matter which I choose to say though the person asking usually always says "oh, how come you don't use Mac, it's all Unixy but pretty and easy" or "Why aren't you using Linux? Are you a fanboy or need your hand held to use a computer?". In all of these cases it's obvious the person has a superiority complex about their choice of platform.

And there's a hierarchy of how people think they're superior for using whichever one with Windows at the bottom:

If you use Windows, well, people just like to hate on Windows (and I personally don't blame them but I can still see why some like it).

The Mac users talk shit about Windows users because they believe they're part of an elite club full of design-minded hipsters. Web dev Mac users will add that Windows sucks for development (which it kind of does unless you're deploying to a full MS stack).

Linux users look down on both Mac and Windows users. They'll say the Mac users prefer form over function, need their hand held, don't like to control their PC (implies lack of skill), and are just following trends. They'll say much of the same about Windows with some added remarks about MS being the devil (as it pertains to FOSS).

No matter what one says about the other I think it's all about superiority. People justify their choice of technology by making themselves believe their choice is the best. They tend to ignore the fact that people have certain personal preferences, different use cases, and different backgrounds when making these criticisms. Developers especially will tend to think every other developer has a similar workflow and is working with the same technologies, therefor their choice of platform is what everyone else should use because "I get shit done more efficiently with this so if others don't that means they're somehow less skilled than me". Envy and money no doubt do play some role but I think it plays a smaller role than you say it does.