If you think the answer might be no, then congratulations, you actually believe in immaterial souls, no matter how materialist or rationalist you otherwise claim to be.
If you think the answer might be no, then congratulations, you actually believe in immaterial souls, no matter how materialist or rationalist you otherwise claim to be.
For the distinction, consider the difference between a simulation of a simple chemical process in a computer—even a perfectly accurate one!—and the actual thing happening. Is the thing going on in the computer the same? No, no matter how perfect the simulation. It’s a little electricity moving around, looking nothing whatsoever like the real thing. The simulation is meaning that we impose on that electricity moving around.
That being the case, this reduces to “if we recreate the matter and state exactly, for-real, is that consciousness?” in which case yeah, sure, probably so.
This doesn’t work if the thing running the simulation requires interpretation.
You can simulate every molecular interaction in a fire, but that does not mean the simulation gives off the same heat. You can write a perfectly accurate equation for splitting an atom, but the equation does not release energy.
It would to a simulated being standing next to the fire.
> You can write a perfectly accurate equation for splitting an atom, but the equation does not release energy.
It releases simulated energy inside the simulation.
Every material interaction is simulated. If you believe that consciousness can't exist in the simulation, then you believe that consciousness is not a material interaction, q.e.d.
Unless your “computer” is identical matter in the same arrangement and state is the original, actually doing stuff.
This is why the “what if you slowly simulated the entire universe on an infinite beach moving rocks around to represent the state? Could anything in it be conscious?” thing isn’t my very interesting.
No, you’re just shoving rocks around on sand. They don’t mean anything except what you decide they do. Easy answer.
I think that is missing the point. You are literally changing the material and medium by conducting a simulation.
Releasing simulated energy within a simulation is not identical to releasing real energy in the real world. The former is purely representational, and even a perfectly simulated object retains this property, and lack of equivalence.
a simulated atom is not a real atom, no mater their similarlity.
In other words, why think consciousness is a physical property of some specific kind of matter rather than an abstract property that can supervene on any sufficiently robust physical substrate?
Im open to the idea that consciousness could arise on different substrates, but hold that the substrate is relevant, and we dont have a working definition of "robustness".
This is part of a bigger challenge in which I claim there is no such thing as a perfect simulation.
Simulation requires representation, which requires requires remaining differences unrepresented. Otherwise you just have just created the same thing, not a simulation.
You can simulate the interaction of physical object with other physical objects using electronic object interacting with other electronic objects, but the two are not the same. The electronic object still can not interact with a physical object.
Right. But presumably not all physical properties of brains are necessary for consciousness. For example, the fact that action potentials happen on the order of 1ms to 1 second probably isn't intrinsic to consciousness. That is, there is no in principle problem with having consciousness supervene on neural networks that have much longer cycles for the basic substrate of communication. It also probably doesn't matter that neurons communicate through opening and closing ion channels, are made of carbon atoms, are constructed by protein assemblies produced from DNA, etc.
What we need is to represent every necessary feature and relationship involved in manifesting consciousness. As a first pass estimation, it seems very likely that only the information-bearing structures are necessary for consciousness. But the information-bearing structures are substrate independent. It follows that a perfect simulation of these information-bearing structures engaged in their typical dynamics would be conscious.
>You can simulate the interaction [...] but the two are not the same.
This idea that something needs to be "the same" is doing a lot of work in your argument. But most relationships involved in brains are incidental to consciousness. We need to get clear on what the necessary features of consciousness are. This is the only measure of sameness that matters, not superficial resemblance.
Imagine you took a brain and replaced one neuron by a transistor (or gate) that performs the exact same function as the neuron.
Now replace more and more neurons until all neurons are now transistors.
Would the resulting being be conscious and experience qualia, like the original did? If not, at what point was there a notable change?
[edit] there’s an obvious attack on this, but I’ll go ahead and note my position on it: the whole premise that we can do any of this without just using actual matter the ordinary way is so far into magical territory that we might as well ask “what if lephuchans simulated it?” or “what if god imagined the simulation?”—well ok, sure, I guess if magic is involved that could work, but what’s the point of even considering it?
“What if a miracle occurred?” isn’t a rebuttal to the position that consciousness as we know it likely can’t be simulated by simulating physics, because you can rebut anything with it. Its admission to a discussion is the same as giving up on figuring out anything.
That's one of the main points of using a thought experiment: by declaring axioms explicitly, by fiat ("true" by definition), it prevents the mind from taking advantage of thought terminating get out of jail free cards like this, it forces people to argue their point.
Suppose we scan more than just the person, but a local environment around them and simulated the whole box.
The update that occurs as the person sits in the room involves them considering their own existence. Maybe they create art about it. If the simulation is to produce accurate results, they will need to feel alive to themselves.
We agree we can simulate an explosion and get accurate results; if we can’t get an accurate simulation of a person, why?
Why does "looking ... like the real thing" have any relevance for consciousness? What property of a conscious substance is captured by this "looking like" criteria? Is consciousness (partially) a feature of the substrate itself or how the substrate moves through some background consciousness aether, or something else? If you can't articulate what this special criteria is, then why think a simulation isn't conscious, which by assumption reproduces all information dynamics of the physical phenomena?
It is actually ruled out by the uncertainty principle. A simulation with perfect fidelity is not a simulation, it's the thing itself.
The most obvious objection is that perceived time-space is a map of some fundamentally inaccessible to us territory, that modern physical models on which the argument depends are likely only covering (imperfectly) a minuscule part of that territory, and that the map may never be fully precise and complete regardless of technology (since a map that is fully precise and complete is the territory).
I found this article [0] very insightful, where they basically propose that consciousness is relative to whom you ask. We inside the simulation may attribute consciousness to each other. The aliens running it may not. What is relevant is the degree of isomorphism between our simulated brain processes and their real ones. So things will advance from all these back-and-forth nebulous arguments only when neuroscience becomes able to explain mechanistically why people claim to be conscious.
[0] A Relativistic Theory of Consciousness. https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychology/articles/10....
If you scan a body of water, and simulate it perfectly, the resulting simulation will not be wet. You can't separate a material process from the material completely. Consciousness may be a result of carbon being a substrate in the interactions. It might be because the brain is wet when those processes happen. There is plenty of room between believing a perfect computational simulation is not conscious and believing in immaterial souls.
It will be wet to the simulated being that's swimming in it.
> Consciousness may be a result of carbon being a substrate in the interactions.
Are you conscious? If so, how did you find out that you're made from actual carbon atoms and not simulated ones?
Which has an entirely different qualia to us, the beings who consciousness we are trying to unravel.
> Are you conscious?
That's the big question.
> If so, how did you find out that you're made from actual carbon atoms and not simulated ones?
If I assume I'm conscious, whatever my atoms are, they are the atoms of concern with regard to said consciousness.