We are at our most creative just before we fall asleep, scientists say (2022) | Hacker News Reader

We are at our most creative just before we fall asleep, scientists say (2022)

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78 pointssquircle57 comments

I keep a notebook in my bedside drawer for that exact reason. I have/had no idea whether it was based on any science or just placebo, but the number of times I've been nodding off and suddenly had a really good idea or solved a problem I've been stuck on, led to my wife buying me a notebook because she was sick of me saying "I'll remember it in the morning" then... not remembering it in the morning.

So that weird idea I had the other night while falling asleep for a dramatic film involving a dump truck full of pepperoni as the leading character is actually not insane?

I'm intrigued

This could be a sequel to Up in Smoke.

Does the leading character have a dump truck?

Yes, and it's full of pepperoni!

A.K.A focus 10, as defined in those infamous CIA papers https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP96-00788R0017002...

One thing I always find interesting is that you always get ideas related to problem or ideas you are familiar with. I never wake up with mechanical solutions nor fashion inspirations, but I reckon that I get more than my fair share of music ideas !

I suspect that this is a proxy for what is really going on - I find that I am most creative /when not under pressure/

I have spoken many times in the past with senior programming friends, some are creative just before sleep, some are creative in the shower, some on the toilet, some walking in nature - the common theme is that they are all in a relaxed state, not under stress - it’s not surprising that this happens for many people just before they fall asleep, but I think if people actively tried to relax more (which is a skill one must practice) then we’d see more creativity peak states

I don't disagree with you, but the last part of your comment gave me a huge grin.

Ah yes nothing more relaxing than your employer demanding that you learn to relax on command, or else!

For your own sake you should. But, also recognize when your employer is full of bullshit and just walk away.

Quoting the actual study:

> This effect was driven by the percentage of insight in the N1 group, which was 2.7 times higher (83.33%, 20 of 24 subjects) than in the Wake group (30.61%, 15 of 49; compared with N1 versus Wake: Fisher’s test, P < 0.001) and 5.8 times higher than in the N2 group (14.29%, 2 of 14, compared with N1 versus N2: Fisher’s test, P < 0.001). The percentage of individuals gaining insight was similar in the Wake and N2 groups (Fisher’s test, P = 0.32). Of note, only 3 of the 16 participants who found the rule before the break (excluded from the previous and remaining analyses) slept in N1 (without any signs of N2), strongly suggesting that there is no a priori relationship between a specific sleep/wake trajectory during the nap and general insight abilities.

Reading through paper cited by the popular magazines and news articles is like looking at the prev night's escapade with sober eyes in morning light!

> Sleep is often seen as a waste of time and productivity

Who thinks this? Is the article just straw-manning?

Many people think this, such as workaholics who brag about needing <4 hours of sleep per night so they can be "productive" in their insanely long awake hours.

Then you go to their desk and they are just wasting life on facebook/linkedin

There is a set of years, maybe a decade where learning what to do and not to do is learned by spending too much time doing so.

Productivity is a relative thing. Ask folks who take a few days off from a keyboard and notice a boost in speed in typing and making more progress than they were.

The idea of having pushes to rest and recover can be normal.

But time away from the keyboard to think (or not) and be creative (or not) is as important as time at they keyboard to allow the brain to make new connections between everything it's working on.

Sleep is nature's punishment to those who strive to build great works.

Don't ask me how I know :(

I hate that I need to sleep, but I know that if I don't respect that need that I'll immediately fall apart.

I just turned 50 and am slowly starting to hate being sleepy. I think(?) I'm getting a restful night's sleep as I typically have, and I'm still active and eat pretty well, but damn... every time I sit down after about 3 pm I feel ready to doze off. I have so much I want to do (not necessarily work, either, but things like reading an engrossing book, watching the movie with the family, etc.), and frequently falling into a groggy state frankly sucks. I'm still experimenting with how to improve the situation.

I tend to solve most problems while I'm away of the computer. It could be running, paddling or just walking.

I like to run from my problems too.

I run into my problems.

I run with my problems til they aren't problems anymore

Running is my favorite form of meditation and also where I solve a ton of problems.

Shower thoughts are great too. I've come up with solutions to many complex situations there.

I do pranayama (which is more widely popularized as Wim Hof breathing). It involves hyperventilating, followed by exhaling completely and holding your breath for up to 2 minutes. I’ve found this breath retention/mild hypoxia period to be highly creative and have instantly come up with visual solutions to some hard problems I’ve been working on during it.

In vipassana (it's a kind of meditation) you can sorta enter sleepland while awake, which is a good way to exploit that creative zone.

I've also had this experience.

How’s it done?

Place a lit candle on the far side of the room. Put your entire awareness on the flame. Or, go outside and find a single leaf on a tree. Absorb yourself entirely in this leaf.

Alternately, focus on nothing. Feel the empty space between you and your surroundings.

Too hard. i need some sort of gadgey to do this. Available on Amazon or Temu maybe?

It's not supposed to be easy. Until... it is.

Try sitting and focusing only on your breathing. Nothing but the sensation of breath in and out of your body. Try and count 10 breaths with no distractions, then 20... then realize the counting is...

How to do vipassana.

Sit quietly. Eyes half-open.

Watch all the experience-stuff that you are experiencing right now. That is, all the sights, sounds, thoughts, smells, etc. All those sensations. Watch them as they come and go.

Watch your attention too. Watch how your attention is moving, what you are putting your attention on, what you are focusing on and such.

Let your attention relax. Don't put your attention on anything. Just let it do nothing. Try to do that.

Sometimes you will feel the urge move your attention in reaction to a sensation. To direct your attention this or that. At a thought or whatever. To think a thought or whatever.

Whenever you feel like you're about to do that, just don't do it. Don't move your attention. Keep it relaxed. Stay relaxed.

Keep doing that for 5, 10, 30 minutes or whatever.

That's it. That's how you do vipassana.

What do you feel when it’s working? What’s the aha?

I appreciate you mentioning this The word "exploit" makes me think about how vulnerable our consciousness can be in those moments before we sleep. Hence a good reason to advocate for not absorbing media while your in a semi-conscious state.

Yeah, sometimes I think about all the things I do, and pretty much everybody does, that is poisonous to my soul. Even the act of reading. Getting all focussed up inside my head like that. It sticks you know. I mean, you put yourself there for a while and you tend to stay there. Stuck in your head, in dreams and abstractions. And then you gradually lose sight of everything else. Alienated from everything. Numb.

It's a testament to the resilience of the human form, and the invisible forces that take care of us, that we haven't already turned into bloodthirsty maniacs.

I read in a book once that the zone 10-20 minutes before sleep where you're kind of transitioning is a kind of altered state of consciousness, and that Edison used to utilise this by, during working sessions, sitting in a chair with a glass bottle in his hand and dozing off to sleep. He'd make progress in his thinking in this "special zone", keep moving through it to sleep, drop the bottle, smashing it on the floor at which point he'd be awoken and would bring back what he'd achieved into the "real world" and press on.

I swear I heard the same with Dali, holding a metal key over a metal box.

Yes I've heard the same story with Leonardo Da Vinci.

Given dreams I've had, I'd say I'm the most creative while sleeping.

Quincy Jones (famous record producer) gets into this "alpha state", half-awake, to do his best studio work.

And also apparently so does Richard D James (Aphex Twin).

I beg to differ. Shower thoughts are the real business.

I was just about to post this. I may come up with creative ideas around sleeping and waking but all the creative problem solving happens in the shower!

Shower right before bed, maybe?

It could also slightly have to do with that we don't have any of the day's tasks in head. Not that this is the main reason, but just one of the factors. From a biological/endocrinological standpoint though, from what I understand, that cortisol levels are highest in the mornings.

This is is such a problem for me. I’ll come up with borderline-absurd ideas JUST before falling asleep and become absolutely convinced I need to dump tons of energy into them. Sometimes it’s a blessing, sometimes it’s a curse

I’m glad they used empirical data and didn’t just ask people how they felt. Weird tho that it just doesn’t jive for me but I’ve never measured myself so maybe I’m biased.

Just before sleep is pretty good, but the shower is where I've had all my best ideas.

I've had some good ones loading the dishwasher too.

I think it is just that you're off doing something mindless.

Shower here too, and walking the dog

Prolong this by staying up all night and having microsleeps every 5 minutes.

This might not be what former night owls need to read.

Edging my sleep, you say