EV charging is so bleak in US that 46% consider going back to gas-powered cars | Hacker News Reader

EV charging is so bleak in US that 46% consider going back to gas-powered cars

businessinsider.com

20 pointsrntn48 comments

Half the problem has been lack of standardization. Without a common standard to build to there's more business risk and less return.

Now that North America has standardized on CCS with the J3400 plug there will be more incentive to build infrastructure and deploy better chargers (like Alpitronic and Kempower models):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KW3C5yYSENw

https://archive.ph/M1d0t

I'm surprised to see this and wonder how much of it is due to non-Tesla cars not yet having easy access to Superchargers. My wife and I have a Model Y and charging hasn't been an issue. New Superchargers open all the time.

All or almost all carmakers are switching to the NACS port/charging standard (the Tesla one, basically), and that should simplify matters substantially.

> All or almost all carmakers are switching to the NACS port/charging standard (the Tesla one, basically)

No, Tesla's charging standard is dead. NACS is CCS with the J3400 plug. Here's a deployed example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3-0xRTduPI

What's the difference between "Tesla's charging standard" and NACS? The Tesla website calls their Supercharger NACS: https://www.tesla.com/NACS

The plug is just a plug. The more important part is the charging protocol and standard. That's CCS going forward. CCS now supports three plug types: Type 1 combo, Type 2 combo, and J3400.

Older Teslas can't charge on these chargers because they don't have CCS support. Those cars will need to get a CCS retrofit.

In general you shouldn't take anything Tesla says at face value. Lying is just too much a part of the company culture at Tesla.

Tesla lies about things as dumb as quarter mile stunts. There was absolutely no need to lie about it, yet they just couldn't help themselves and they went ahead and lied about it anyway:

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/tesla-cybertruck-beast-vs...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5J3H8--CQRE

https://insideevs.com/news/699260/tesla-cybertruck-porsche-r...

Tesla never even ran the quarter mile. And the worst thing about it is the Cybertruck's lead engineer trying to rationalize the lie:

https://x.com/wmorrill3/status/1746266437088645551

When your engineers lack commitment to basic honesty then you've got a sick company culture.

>Older Teslas can't charge on these chargers because they don't have CCS support. Those cars will need to get a CCS retrofit

When you said "these chargers," do you mean the V3 Superchargers with CCS+J3400? Or, do you mean NACS 3rd party charging stations?

Tesla's chargers will still support the Tesla protocol as well as CCS. They do that right now to support older Teslas. Everything else charging on a Tesla charger will talk CCS, just like they've been doing in Europe for a long time.

No other chargers will support Tesla's protocol. They'll all be CCS.

If I understand correctly, this means that Tesla vehicles that do not have CCS retrofit will not work with J3400 NACS third party chargers. Is that correct?

Yes, the car must talk CCS to work.

For example, Teslas in Europe since the Model 3 have had CCS support. The older European Model Ss and Model Xs needed to get CCS retrofits.

The newer North American Teslas have CCS support. The older ones need the retrofit.

> The plug is just a plug. The more important part is the charging protocol and standard.

Why? I would say the plug matters more than everything else combined. The bits on the wire do basically the same thing across standards and translation isn't very onerous. The plugs vary significantly in what amps and volts they support, and because of heating it's hard to even have an adapter if you want max charging speed.

Yes older Teslas will need a retrofit. That's not too difficult.

Without support for CCS it doesn't matter if you can plug in because the charge session won't start.

If your car talks CCS you can at least use an adapter if you don't have the right inlet. But if your car doesn't talk CCS then it can't charge at all.

You can use an adapter to talk CCS. So plug and protocol are the same in that aspect.

But adapting plugs is a lot more limited than adapting protocols. And you can get a permanent protocol install that has no downsides, while there's no fully-featured way to support multiple high-wattage plugs.

> You can use an adapter to talk CCS.

No, the adapters are dumb adapters that just connect the pins. The plug is separate from the protocol.

An adapter that would also do protocol conversion is bigger, clumsier, and more expensive.

Doing protocol conversion is a tiny little circuit board. It can be much smaller than a plug adapter, and cheaper.

Doing both at once is more expensive than a dumb adapter but that difference doesn't even need to be $5, and it does not need to be bigger.

Here is a real world adapter that does protocol conversion of CCS to Tesla's protocol. It's big, clumsy, and finicky: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEE2o6_FRxc

Here is a real world example of a dumb adapter for J3400 to CCS Type 1 combo. It does no protocol conversion. It's smaller, simpler, and works: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3-0xRTduPI

Just accept the practical reality that Tesla's protocol is dead. CCS is the protocol going forward. CCS won.

> It's big, clumsy, and finicky

It's big because it's going from the bigger plug to the smaller plug. A dumb adapter would be the same size. And it's very much not an example of a pure protocol converter that isn't changing plugs.

It's finicky because it's a prototype.

> Just accept the practical reality that Tesla's protocol is dead. CCS is the protocol going forward. CCS won.

What makes you think I don't accept this? What does this have to do with anything I've said?

> It's big because it's going from the bigger plug to the smaller plug. A dumb adapter would be the same size.

No. Here is Tesla's CCS to J3400 dumb adapter. It is smaller, simpler, and works: https://shop.tesla.com/product/ccs-combo-1-adapter?web=true

> What makes you think I don't accept this?

Everything you have said up to this point.

> No. Here is Tesla's CCS to J3400 dumb adapter. It is smaller, simpler, and works: https://shop.tesla.com/product/ccs-combo-1-adapter?web=true

There is no technical reason the adapter in the video wasn't this size (assuming it supports the same current). Adding a chip does not require it to be bigger than this. I don't know why that one was bigger, but it wasn't the active/passive distinction.

> Everything you have said up to this point.

How so? Do you think I'm arguing this because I'm a Tesla fanboy and want the win to go to them? I assure you that's not the case. I just think plug matters more than protocol as a general statement for EV charging.

Please explain how CCS being a definitive winner affects a single thing I have said.

Here is Tesla's CHAdeMO to Tesla protocol adapter. It's big, clumsy, and they've stopped selling it: https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/chademo-adapter-ma...

Here's a CCS to CHAdeMO adapter. It's big, clumsy, and expensive: https://evniculus.eu/products/adapter-ccs2-to-chademo-for-ni...

The level of misinformation being spread here is severe.

NACS is the Tesla connector. Tesla will support both its homemade protocol on that connector (at the moment far superior because it doesn't require separate payment, you just plug in and charge) and CCS. Other stations will support CCS for fast charging.

This only matters when you want to level 3 charge, i.e, supercharge. Level 2 chargers always work without CCS support because that's just a normal J1772 which was always pin-compatible with NACS (you get a simple plastic adapter with the car).

All Teslas 2021 and newer support CCS. It costs about $250-300 to upgrade an older Tesla to support CCS. Tesla already has upgrade programs in place for some models; you can just schedule it from the app. If you really need support for models that they haven't yet covered, 3rd parties have been offering this upgrade for a long time at the same prices.

There's nothing special here. No one is lying. I have no idea what you're talking about. Sounds like you have some problem with Tesla?

That's just not true..

https://www.cnet.com/home/electric-vehicles/tesla-charging-s...

Here is a list of vehicles that use the standard: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a44388939/tesla-nacs-charg...

You've not at all understood what I've said. Watch the video I linked to and think about how it is that a Chevy Bolt can charge using a J3400 plug.

You're totally wrong. This is the standard Tesla charger. It's always been compatible with a normal J1772. They even give you an adapter when you buy a Tesla.

You all seem to be taking past each other.

The Tesla/NACS physical plug always has and presumably always will be able to use the J1772 _protocol_. But this is level 2. For level 3, the physical plug can support the old legacy Tesla protocol as well as the new CCS-over-NACS protocol.

The adapter included with Teslas is not used for level 3 charging.

You're confused. Watch the video I linked to. See the real world example. That will clarify it for you.

Lord Elon fired the supercharger team.

That does not bode well. Lord Elon may change his mind, who knows.

Maybe I'm just lucky in where I live/the routes I travel, but having an EV has been amazing and I would never go back. I have done multiple long distance trips ranging from 3ish hours of driving to 10ish hours of driving, and while the charging definitely adds to the length, it is the amount I expected before I bought the car, and I'm fine with it. And finding fast chargers along my route has never been a problem. There has been an issue with the fast charger exactly once, and I was able to go to a different charger in the same town. I've had to wait for a stall to open up maybe twice.

I'm also saving enough money on fuel every month that if I was going to take a long trip where charging infrastructure was not as reliable/prevalent, then I could probably rent an ICE vehicle for a week long trip once a year and still come out ahead.

It would not surprise me to find out that charging infrastructure along my usual trips (the I-5 corridor) is unusually good, but I just wouldn't have guessed that such a large number of people would be taking so many long trips in areas with poor charging infrastructure that it would outweigh the other advantages.

I don't think the issue is necessarily trips. Many cars are being sold with multi-year free charging packages which incentivize people to not charge at home.

People who buy one of these cars in population dense areas often face a choice: waste their home electricity or wait in line / fight for a spot to charge. It takes one of the major conveniences of EVs and removes it since people basically pay a penalty for charging at home.

So, again maybe this is just because of where I live and the power rates I have available to me, but my overnight rates are $0.04/kWh. And my power company paid the for most of my lvl 2 charger. I spend $20 or less per month keeping the car charged at home. I had one of those "free" charging packages (although much smaller and less generous than some), and even with it I would still charge at home purely for the convenience of not having to go somewhere.

I get that some people are renters or for some other reason have a logistical difficulty with charging at home, but for anyone who isn't in that camp, I just can't imagine not charging at home. It is so nice to never have to think about stopping somewhere in normal/daily driving. It's honestly one of the biggest advantages (for me) of having an EV. The complete elimination during normal use of any thought or consideration about fuel other than developing the habit of plugging it in when I get home.

I was an early-ish EV adopter but had gone back to PHEVs and ICE vehicles for the last five years or so.

As of a month ago, I’m back in an EV (and love it), but it feels to me like the public charging situation is worse than it was five years ago. Several of the L2 destination chargers I used to use while shopping are gone, and the DC fast charging map covering the most probable destinations in a few hundred mile radius still has some weird gaps that the market hasn’t filled.

Range has gotten good enough that these shortcomings should be manageable, but if I didn’t live in a single family home with access to a 70A circuit for charging, it’d be way more of a headache. I wonder both how the non-Tesla fast charging infrastructure has remained so bad for so long, and how Tesla was able to afford building such a robust one (plus giving away quite a bit of free charging, up until not so many years back, no?).

Can anyone reasonably take this report as quality evidence? Even the primary source[1] has no information on the survey design or composition beyond the fact that they sampled ~30,000 people globally. No mention of how the responses were collected or how many of those respondents are from the US, let alone which states.

[1] https://executivedigest.sapo.pt/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/M...

We should have transitioned/mandated phevs will 20 mile all electric ranges 20 years ago for all consumer vehicles.

Nowadays we can do sodium ion or lfp versions. It's likely the Midwest/ everything but the coasts in the USA is simply going to phevs for the next 10-15 years, the US is simple too incompetent as an infrastructure planner and developer.

I have both an EV (model 3), and an older suburban. As much as I like the concept of the model 3, there are still places where it’s impractical. My parents live in a mountain town about 1.5 miles away. The 4000ft elevation change makes it questionable on if ill make the round trip on a single charge. Yet the suburban get 11mpg. The suburban can do things the Model 3 can’t - tow a boat, while the model 3 can do things the Suburban can’t - not get 11mpg.

I find myself limping the suburban along (GM product are cheap to keep running) even though it’s over 20 years old. My neighbors probably don’t appreciate a beater with faded paint in the front year, but I care less each year.

I’d originally bought the suburban for the nanny to drive my kids, as it’s an urban tank, but have found that more and more often I’m taking it on my long trips to national parks.

North rim of the Grand Canyon. Good luck with a tesla. Yellowstone. Again. Good luck. Yosemite - there’s no supercharger in the valley. Kings canyon and sequoia - not both in the same day.

Even driving from AZ to LA, the electric cars require multiple - 2-3 stops. The suburban can make it nonstop.

Phoenix to Las Vegas - also 2 stops.

Electric cars need about 50% more range (85mph range of 300 miles 80%-20%) before I’d call them a full replacement.

Comparing an EV with a Suburban… what a read.

One doesn’t have to go to the other extreme of transportation paradigms to solve the issues you had though. In Europe they tow campers with regular cars that in the US one wouldn’t even think about. Like a Jetta towing a camper. A Corolla hybrid solves all your issues and is probably cheaper to own than the Tesla in the long run.

A Corolla hybrid doesn’t get you in the carpool lane for commuting in Az traffic, and I already own the suburban. Sure, I could sell the suburban, and buy a Corolla, and in about 60k miles, come out ahead, but then I couldn’t haul a boat. I was quite hopeful that the Cybertruck was going to have a 500 mile range.

I plan to buy a GMC Diesel 2500 next. Eventually I’ll upgrade the Tesla, but only for one with significantly more range.

Most of these people would have been better served by a plug in hybrid. It’s tough for apartment dwellers to find chargers and the time needed to charge them.

When these articles talk about “EVs” almost all the time what they REALLY mean is “non-Tesla EVs”.

this is the twentieth year that "change from fossil fuels now" is imperative. When does the Emperor have no clothes?

Are you thinking that climate change is not happening, or that it isn’t as urgent as people are saying?

hah - I am utterly misunderstood.. it means to say Yes Climate is Real, Change Now or Else ! now how is it that substantial shifts have not been implemented today.

I would encourage anyone with an EV to just hang on a bit longer. We are < 3 years away (my opinion) from solid state, or other high capacity-fast charging batteries. Once you can get 1,000 miles on a single charge the flood gates will open for EVs, but we're not there just yet.

Why are you directing that at "anyone with an EV"? It sounds like you should be telling that to anyone considering a new car, regardless of what kind they currently have.

There's no way in hell an entirely new battery is going to be in production vehicles at scale in that timeframe[0].

But if you do believe this, it's arguably cause to sell your about to be obsolete battery on wheels, before that slow charging short range junk is worth very little.

[0] "We are < 3 years away (my opinion) from solid state, or other high capacity-fast charging batteries."

What makes you think that's true given no evidence of that exists?

> Please submit the original source. If a post reports on something found on another site, submit the latter.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Actual Source [PDF]: https://executivedigest.sapo.pt/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/M...

That's just a broad dataset. It has no focus and nobody would pay any attention to it as a submission.

"Broad dataset" is generous. More of a fairly vague summary of a private dataset.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com