How good are these? They are pretty highly priced (1600-2000 USD), comparable to a mac laptop. I would expect the quality to be on mac level if i would pay this price for a laptop.
But you will get a lot of ram and disk for this price, a robust and fast laptop.
And something you can repair.
If you are a mac person, there is no substitute for the mac, by definition.
If you don't care about mac, then the framework is a good machine.
I rocked dell for a long time, I switched to framework, and so far, it's been great. The keyboard is comfy, the touchpad is good (for a non mac), the mate screen is productive and I enjoy its format.
The specs have not let me down perf wise, the extension system is fantastic, and the value proposition of being able to be repaired is unmatched. I assembled it, and you can see they care a lot.
Dual boot windows + linux on it is quick and easy. Support is perfect, including sleep, wifi, fingerprint reader, webcam, etc. The mechanical off switch for the mic and cam is a plus.
The battery life sucks, and I can hear the fans more than I want. It's not as stylish as other notebooks.
That's it.
Mostly, I forgot about the machine in a week and it's transparent to me: it's plugged on a USB dongle that powers it, hook me to ethernet and extends the screen. I used it on the go twice, nothing special to report.
It just works and I get things done.
Which is probably what a lot of people want.
Plus, who knows, they might come out with a webcam or sound upgrade kit one day.
This is too important for good communication for me.
But indeed, it's not on the higher end for sound and image quality.
It's not the worse either. Just meh.
Also, the new screen looks nice.
Might upgrade in a year or two if I feel I need more brightness.
The fact you can change it slowly, piece by piece, is fantastic. It spreads the cost of upgrading the machines over the years instead of having to pull the entire cash at once. No need to reinstall everything every time.
You can upgrade the battery when you need to. Then maybe the RAM 3 years later once electron app with embedded AI model takes over the world and a hello world eats 4go.
This is, to me, the killer feature.
Young me would have hated it.
I wanted a new poney regularly.
I'm not sure if the quality is "on the mac level" (I've heard conflicting things, like I have for Macs), but the repairability and upgradeability are a million times better. That means that you can buy the 8GB RAM version, and upgrade later if needed; you don't have to shell out 500euros more just to not have a useless device in a year or two.
The module expansion is looking good too.
Update: updating the main board (e.g CPU) would cost anywhere from 500 to 1000 EUR (https://frame.work/marketplace/mainboards). I'd much rather stay with a desktop PC where all the parts are also upgradeable, but much, much cheaper to the point that it actually makes sense.
On this main board ($340):
https://frame.work/products/cooler-master-mainboard-case-and...
The CPU is worth $250 already.
You pay a $100 to get a swapable CPU on a laptop which is guaranteed to be compatible.
You might value or not this feature, and that's fair.
But I do value it a lot.
Even on a tower, matching a board and a CPU is not a given. On a laptop, forget about it.
As for the costs: Yes the mainboards on frameworks website currently cost about 500-1000€, new laptops using those cpu's are tend to be a bit more expensive than just those parts, so you are saving a bit of money there. But in my opinion that is not the main selling point. The fact that you get a high quality, long lasting, well supported laptop from a company that respects it's customers and their problems coupled with the fact that it is just environmentally better is the main selling point.
Yes currently you pay extra for those benefits. You have to choose if those things are worth more money than the next 3-year throwaway laptop.
Btw: I am a very happy user of a Framework 16 as my gaming machine. So my opinion may be biased ;)
Since then, every laptop Intel (and AMD, for that matter) CPU package has been BGA, and therefore soldered to motherboards.
If you want to upgrade your CPU on a notebook, you must change your motherboard; no choice in the matter.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Socket_G3?wprov=sfla1
It's still in daily use, after 8y back I had to replace a faulty mlcc (short to ground) that took a mosfet along with it.
Usually what you upgrade are: ram, disk and cpu.
Comparing a tower with a laptop makes little sense. They don't have the same use cases and compromises at all.
It's like saying "I much rather stay on a framework, because all the part are upgradable, but I exchange the bigger price for portability and not having to by a battery to protect against power down".
It has little to do with the framework proposition, which is to be a laptop that happens to be easier and cheaper to repair than the competition.
I tried to repair my previous laptop. I killed it because the parts are so hard to manipulate.
Cost me $2000.
I think anything is cheaper than that.
I like the idea of the Framework laptop, but just don't see how I can justify it. If I was working away from my desk more often, then maybe.
I have a 12yo iPad, a 8yo Macbook Air, and they're still going strong. I think after around 10 years you may not be able to update the OS anymore?? But tbh after 10 years I really want to change laptops, it's about time :)
And hopefully one can install Linux on the Mac and keep using it for other things, I think... the hardware is just very good.
That's the one I currently use when not working. It's still very fine for browsing the web, watching videos and even coding as long as you don't mind some delays. With "good" light software (e.g. emacs, anything on the terminal), it's still very snappy and totally fine.
paid around 1300eur netto, and i found the build quality to be on par with my old macbook 13. Matte display is also nice, though the brightness settings are not as 'wide' as the macbook's. The fan rarely ever ramps up, the keyboard is very comfortable compared to a 1st gen butterfy keyboard, and you can set the battery charge limit in the bios settings (e.g. limit charging to 60 %)
I am really happy with it.
See previous discussions https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40751414
What actually kill batteries is overcharging (which has to be done on purpose in the electronics) and heat, having internals over 60C is where the real issue is.
I think phones are the 1st ones that started overcharging just to ensure lower life expectancy of the device... and of course much better autonomy during the 1st impressions.
The battery life using Linux isn't good, the screen is isn't that good, the touch pad is okay, but not great, the layout of the arrow keys is ridiculous. I don't get how something can market itself as an enthusiast laptop and come with arrow keys like these. And I agree that for this price, you should expect best-in-class components.
But the killer for me was seeing the modular port concept in action. It's the kind of thing that sounds great on paper, but in practice doesn't really work. It just wastes space that could be used for a larger battery, while limiting the number of ports that the laptop can fit at any one time. It's not a Linux laptop, but just for comparison, a Macbook Pro has way more ports, and all of them are usable at once.
I'm sure things will improve, but basically my impression is that the Framework concept doesn't seem that well thought out yet. And the upgradability guarantee might lock them into their unfinished ideas for a lot longer than other manufacturers would be. I really hope they can solve these issues, because what they're trying to do is fantastic, but it’s not for me just yet.
As for your other points, those are fair even though subjective.
I really do like the modular ports, especially because they expose the possibility to build your own modules (or buy community made modules) for the laptop because everything is open source.
The ports I personally need are HDMI, lots of USB-C ports, sometimes USB-A (but less and less), and sometimes an SD card. I know everybody has different requirements, but I'm also sure that's at least somewhat typical. And given that, I can't be the only one who thinks it's silly to reserve space for several 4x3x1 cm large USB-C-to-USB-C converters in a space-constrained device.
[1] https://frame.work/de/en/products/usb-c-expansion-card?v=FRA...
For example, my other favorite laptop, the Redmi Pro Books basically have the same physical size batteries but at 80wh/99wh ratings.
I just think Framework can't find a contract manufacturer for higher density batteries at their volume.
I don’t get that logic. There’s extra space; more battery could fit in there. The fact that higher density batteries exist in no way invalidates that.
(You might perhaps have a point if battery life was already excellent and the more important goal might be to save weight, but that’s not the case at all.)
The opportunity is then taken to stuff the speakers in the framework in that same space.
It's literally no different than a MacBook Pro or other mfgs.
The only thing I could see is they need to figure out how to miniaturize their speakers to expand the battery size a bit. Or move the speakers to the main board and project out the top. Their speakers are currently larger than the competition and not really any better while stealing battery space.
I would love to see them offer a larger battery with the trade-off of the user removing the modular speakers. Because personally I think using sound devices in public is just fucking rude and I'll use better quality earbuds/headphones both in public and privately anyway.
IO? There is no space redistribution possible if you want the IO on the left and right like every other laptop in the world. The alternative would be to put the IO on the top edge of the laptop, in which case you can reclaim space. The downside is you limit the display opening angle (it can't go flat), but that's a weird obsession in laptop design that came from Apple and thinbooks. (There used to be IO on the top edge in older laptops). Unfortunately being the ulgy duckingly would be bad for Frame.works business most likely as I guarantee every reviewer would whine about it
In particular Framework uses a 4 series cell battery pack configuration. Not unusual and they went for 4 equal sized cells put in series in a rectangular frame. Trying to fill awkward remaining space such as a "U" or "L" shape cavity requires a far more custom solution and Framework most likely does not have the volume to commission such an order from a custom battery pack manufacturer.
I love my Framework 13. The battery life on it is fine, I'd estimate probably 6-8 hours and charges quickly. The touchpad is quite large which I really enjoy, I believe that's thanks to the 3:2 aspect ratio? It took a second to adjust back from a haptic touchpad to a physical one, but doesn't bother me at all anymore. The arrow keys are a none issue, the half sized up/down arrow is standard on most 13" (and even some 16") laptops I've seen.
[1] https://d3t0tbmlie281e.cloudfront.net/igi/framework/5gFFHIX1...
ps. Tuxedo has the same problem. No Linux-native laptop suits me :( Thinkpads it is.
A friend has a frame.work & I've trialed it a fair bit - combining his review with my hands on experiences I'd say it's not quite as nice as the new Ms nor up to the level of the old pre-2018 macbooks but it is very close, & certainly far better build quality than what Apple were churning out in those intervening years.
But I must say the M1 mac book pro (14", 16GB) is one of the nicest laptops I've ever had. The second best would be a 2011 era mac book pr 15" that I used for several years (pre-retina).
I'd be interested in a decent linux laptop but so far everything I look at has compromises on quality, screen/resolution, trackpads, etc. These framework laptop come close. Especially now that they finally have decent screens that aren't the industry standard 1080p garbage. Not quite upto Apple's standards (colors, contrast, dynamic range, etc.). But it's nice enough. It does seems a bit bulky for my taste. But I could probably live with it. I'd use it for gaming and Steam mainly. I have a shitty old laptop I use for that currently but I hate the screen, keyboard, trackpad, and the anemic performance.
They are nice laptops but not in the category of a Macbook or a Thinkpad X1 Carbon
the idea of a DIY laptop that I could upgrade, et cetera, was something I could really get behind. but in practice it just feels like a waste of time and money. The machine does have to actually work.
For me it boils down to (in order of importance):
1) Keyboard 2) Trackpad 3) Screen 4) Battery life 5) Performance
And overall OSX is just a good, solid OS. It never crashes, its fast and is UNIX-y enough for me.
My dream setup is a macbook with an 100% linux compatible OS. Something like Asahi Linux. Maybe in 10 years.... one can dream.
No, it's not "fair" to come here and bloviate about your Mac in a topic about Framework laptops built for a different crowd. We get enough ads all across the web, keep them off HN at least.
Buying RAM elsewbere for half the cost and bringing your SSD from your prior system can allow you stay below $1000.