Oklahoma Superintendent Ryan Walters orders Bible taught in schools | Hacker News Reader

Oklahoma Superintendent Ryan Walters orders Bible taught in schools

nbcnews.com

26 pointsisaacfrond38 comments

What kind of Christianity? Nicene or Restorationist?

Which denomination, Ryan? Adventism, Anabaptism, Anglicanism, Baptists, Lutheranism, Methodism, Moravianism, Quakerism, Pentecostalism, Plymouth Brethren, Reformed Christianity, Waldensianism?

Which subbranch of which denomination? It's that fucking Simpsons quote, "Bart, we're here to bring you back to the one true faith, Western Branch of American Reform Presbylutheranism".

That's why the government doesn't sponsor religion. Because there'd be a fucking civil war between the sects of Christianity trying to get their creed as the state one and the persecuted ones wouldn't back down.

Nevertheless, if I was forced to teach the kids the Bible I'd personally go straight for Nestorianism. Indoctrinate those kids and take that Nicene Creed down a peg.

Comedian Emo Philips tells of walking across a bridge and seeing a man standing on the edge, ready to jump off. He ran over and said, “Stop! Don’t do it!”

“Why shouldn’t I?” he said.

“Well, there’s so much to live for.”

“Like what?”

“Well, are you religious?”

He said, “Yes.”

I said, “Me too! Are you Christian or Buddhist?”

“Christian.”

“Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?”

“Protestant.”

“Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?”

“Baptist.”

“Wow, me too! Are you Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord?”

“Baptist Church of God!”

“Me too! Are you original Baptist Church of God or Reformed Baptist Church of God?”

“Reformed Baptist Church of God!”

“Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915?”

His new friend replied, “Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915.”

To which Philips replied, “Die, heretic!,” and he pushed him off.

Source: https://www.crosswalk.com/headlines/contributors/dr-james-em...

Emo Philips tours with Weird Al, and did this joke at the last Weird Al concert. Thrilled to hear it live.

To be fair.

They said teach the Bible NOT Christianity.

We should most definitely teach the Bible in its historical context starting with:

- the genocide of indigenous peoples particularly the California Genocide from 1846-1873

- slavery and corporate interests (160?-1865)

- manifest destiny

- lynching in a Christian country (1860-1950)

- the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

- civil rights movement (1950-1968)

- the Catholic Church sex abuse scandals

- Christian Zionism, corporate interests and apartheid in the Middle East

If you really want to be fair, they said "teach from the Bible," not teach about the Bible.

This is a good list, but why start there? We should start with the genocides in the Bible itself. There are so many, it's hard to pick just one, but I think my favorite is where David, a man after God's own heart, killed all the males in Edom. Who said that feminism has no place in the church? /s

Good point.

Seems like a good place to start to answer…

“How did genocide and murder in the Bible influence government and church sanctioned violence in the so called New World?”

Some of what you listed might be appropriate if the class were a Christianity focused social studies class. By teaching the bible, they would be meaning the teaching of the text of the bible. I'd assume this would be more like a literature class where only the overall text and passages are evaluated, not the influence of the text on other people.

That said, this is very arguably a violation of the establishment clause.

They’re not actually interested in teaching the text of the Bible, too much incest and rape and incestuous rape for the young minds to bear.

I believe this line of thought was one of the drivers of the original separation of church and state premise.

The solution to this is obvious. We need to ask each denomination supply gladiators\W\W\W\W\Wmissionaries who will debate the finer points of doctrine with warhammers. Once everyone agrees there's a winner then the winner gets to decide what is taught in schools. To register disagreement, more gladiators\W\W\W\W\Wmartyrs have to step up. It'll provide a safe outlet for that overpowering martyrdom complex, it'll be entertaining, and it'll never get resolved.

Vote for me in 2024.

Bible !== christianity, or any of those things you listed. It's the best-preserved-most-ancient library of texts that have been continually read daily by at least someone ever since they were produced, and have had a huge impact on western thought and civilization, conceptions of morality, justice, duty, separation between authority and religion within society, etc. And it does all of that while being shared between many religions.

> And it does all of that while being shared between many religions.

And also while being a collection of mythology, hearsay, internally inconsistent if not mutually contradictory moral codes, and objectively bad poetry!

Just like people who swear they love the constitution, people who swear they love the Bible usually have no idea what's in it. Like if you want to go full "New Covenant" you don't need the Bible for that; if you don't well welcome to observing the Sabbath and not mixing your cloths.

I wonder, is it a productive approach to the superintendent concerns? Anecdotal evidence with sample size = 1 (me) points that the more your force your ideologies to me, the more resistance you get from me. I'm still struggling to keep myself agnostic without falling into aggressive atheism exactly because a lot of religious people feel the need to convert me into Christianity. And it works through all my life, with not just religion but with national pride, patriotism, classic literature and really any thing that I do not care of but someone decided to change that forcefully. It is counterproductive with me, but I watch how people are still trying to do it. Does it work?

> I wonder, is it a productive approach to the superintendent concerns

It doesn't matter.

Oklahoma's current governor Kevin Stitt is term limited and Ryan Walters is angling for either a gubinatoral run in 2026 [0][1][2] or Secretary of Education under a Republican president [1][3]

Superintendent of Public Instruction in Oklahoma is a very powerful and high visibility position that can be leveraged into a Gubinatorial run, as Walter's predecessor Joy Hofmeister ran for Governor, and her predecessor Janet Barresi ran for Congress.

[0] - https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/politics/government/202...

[1] - https://www.the74million.org/article/the-mystery-of-ryan-wal...

[2] - https://ryanwaltersforgovernor.com/

[3] - https://oklahomavoice.com/briefs/ryan-walters-endorses-donal...

Interesting thought experiment. Going down that route, I’m going to explicitly not promote the idea of hard atheism to you. Please report back before death if you’ve eventually abandoned agnosticism or not.

See this is a perfect example of why I had kindergarten-level English proficiency at 2 years old… I realized, around the moment the first tornado jumped our house, days after I’d been brought home from the maternity ward, that one way or another my survival depended on communicating to two obviously bewildered and clearly confused adults that we had to get the fuck out of Oklahoma.

This violates the Establishment clause, will get tossed out if it goes to the Supreme Court. There is a reason religion should be kept away from the state. So stupid shit like this does not happen.

A survey of world religion, including the great texts, as an adjunct to social studies seems reasonable to me. It is a huge part of many people's lives. I am Jewish, and I have looked inside the New Testament, the Quran, and the Book of Mormon. Perhaps if approached hermeneutically, like my own religion may be descended from a Yahwistic cult developed through monolatry, or maybe God transmitted the Torah letter for letter via teletype b'har Sinai, but I still keep it next to my bed.

>A survey of world religion, including the great texts, as an adjunct to social studies seems reasonable to me.

That very clearly isn't the goal or agenda behind what's happening in Oklahoma, however. And even if it were, the subject would be too complex and nuanced to teach to fifth graders, which is why most such courses are available at higher levels and as electives, and they don't exclusively focus on Christian doctrine.

I missed that when I read the article. But that is part of it, it just says "the Bible". For me, I just think of the Tanakh, or what Christians call the Old Testament. It did not occur to me that this could mean a Christian scriptural-literalist interpretation until I read of Walters' background. Like Sarah Silverman said, in this country, if you are sworn in court or government office, "it's not even my Bible".

When I visited a county fair in Texas once, somebody handed me a booklet that was just the New Testament, which blew my mind. I did not know that Christians just drop the Hebrew Bible.

Fair enough, but I’d wager that people pushing this would flip out if other religious texts were being taught.

That's essentially the point.

It's meant to be challenged in court in hopes that that the current Supreme Court will make some subjectively favorable "clarification" about what the Establishment Clause, etc says and provide a green light to more/other policies even if it strikes down this one.

It does seem like a pretty crude attempt at that, likely frustrating to those who would have preferred to see a more sophisticated challenge raised, but that's what it is.

I think people unfairly critique this court, they are more originalist, more towards balancing the executive and the legislative. There is no way this would survive in this Supreme Court.

The cannibal zombie cult that uses a gruesome execution device as their symbol?

No thanks.

As long as you eat the transmogrified flesh, you get to be a zombie too, at some point (the last day), no matter your sins in life...well as long as you give all your wealth away first (preferably to the Church but if you give it in a way that brings more people that's okay too). The institution just gives you an opportunity to start the process during life as a gentle precursor to what comes after death.

Not to mention, the word "christian" was originally meant as an insult. So offensive.

It still kind of is?

Like that old wise crack: "Which part of my story gives you the impression I like crosses? So much that you use one as a symbol for me...?!?!?!"

Bigot!

What if you are of a different faith?

What if you are not god fearing?

What if you do not want your children being taught about a 2000 years old fantasy book that was only written 400 years after the crucifiction.

Imagine writing about todays events in 400 years time passed down just by word of mouth and a few pages of text.

Notice too that the word crucifiction has Fiction in it.

Fiction is any creative work, chiefly any narrative work, portraying individuals, events, or places that are imaginary or in ways that are imaginary. Fictional portrayals are thus inconsistent with history, fact, or plausibility.

The word Crucifixion does not contain fiction and is actually historically well documented.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus

The irony elevates the post, as if from the dead

[dupe]

More discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40816352

Ban all books!

We cannot trust teachers to objectively teach with the right historical, political and social context.

Ban all books!

Your point is taken, but shouldn’t we also trust teachers to choose which books will best serve their classroom?

To expand that..

Should we trust state governments to choose the best laws for their citizens?

Dupe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40816994

Reply on news.ycombinator.com