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Comment by gennarro | Hacker News Reader

The article vastly underplays how mismanaged the MTA is and how poorly the subway is run on a massive budget. It is one of the last organizations that should be receiving this level of additional revenue, regardless of any sunk costs that have been put towards congestion pricing. This whole thing has been a mess for years so why double down on it when it would punish a set of residents and commuters and have very little chance of improving things for riders?

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The MTA might be badly run by subway standards but it still gives you a lot more bang for your buck than roads in NY, once you include the market-rate cost of the space that those roads take up.

> once you include the market-rate cost of the space that those roads take up

That's like saying that since land closer to Central Park is worth more than land further away, that we should demolish Central Park and replace it with more apartments. Property in NYC would be worthless if there weren't roads you could use to reach it.

> Property in NYC would be worthless if there weren't roads you could use to reach it.

Most of the people who go to Manhattan get there by subway, bus, bike or walking (especially the people who have to work for a living), at a fraction of the space cost of those using cars. Access to property is certainly an important part of making that property valuable (hence why property around stations is worth more), but Manhattan spends far too much (in space) on roads for the amount of access throughput it gets in return.

If there wasn’t the MTA and subway the roads would be so congested as to be useless and New York couldn’t only support a fraction of its density

Agree - only today I complained about the nyc subway on hn.

But a car? Parking it? Tolls? Insurance? To drive around in traffic going no where fast?

You're daydreaming.

Taxi/Uber when needed and subway the other 90%. I'm two blocks from the subway with coffee and a diner on the way there. Man, it's awesome. I'm annoyed def some days more than others at the mta, but this is a no-brainer.

Gd it America! Not everything can be low cost now/today and have long term soundness ... there are too many cars polluting too much in too small of an area going nowhere fast. As a would be business operator of the city, I damn near have a moral imperative to make some cash on that imbalance.

I've spent many a $25 going 2 miles or less (say when raining) in a yellow cab. I always feel half stupid for paying it given how slow it is to move two lousy miles.

idk, I honestly think congestion pricing would still be a good idea even if they just lit all the toll proceeds on fire. I almost wonder if it was a political blunder to couple "reduce cars in lower manhatten" with "more funding for MTA" in the first place.

Congestion pricing has little impact on the unlimited number of cars (unlike regulated taxis) that can enter Manhattan and drive around for hours for Uber/Lyft.

Sure it does, if they enter and leave the CBD. Cars coming and going from the UES and UWS, for example, would be subject to the charge.

(But at the same time: I don't think anybody has claimed that it's a panacea. Congestion pricing can be both good policy and still have gaps.)

> still have gaps

There's always the opportunity for street/sector level surveillance via automated license plate readers. Your favorite neighborhood or street has too many cars? Impose quotas, vary the quota by time/season that only a computer can decipher, then sell "Fast Pass" exceptions to generate more revenue. Win for neo-feudal middleman, without brand licensing fees for the "environment" that justified a new digital on-demand toll economy.

I don’t understand what this has to do with congestion pricing, which AFAICT had a very simple (arguably too simple, per complaints about charging blue collar workers) fare schedule.

(I also don’t think anybody would describe Manhattan’s CBD as their favorite neighborhood.)

> what this has to do with congestion pricing

Try a web search for geo-fencing, which is closely coupled to modern technology for enforcement of geo boundaries that are not gated by a physical barrier.

Manhattan Central Business District (CBD) is defined as "Manhattan south of and inclusive of 60th St" excluding some through-traffic highways.

> don't think anybody would described Manhattan’s CBD as their favorite neighborhood

It includes neighborhoods such as these, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Manhattan_neighborhood...

  Chelsea
  Chinatown
  Flatiron
  Greenwich Village
  Koreatown
  Little Italy
  Lower East Side
  NoLita
  SoHo
  Tribeca

Source? It absolutely has impact, as shown in other cities which have implemented congestion pricing.

Impact on Uber/Lyft drivers?

I haven't yet chosen a side in the great uber vs taxi debate. but in general, driving lots of different people around all day sounds like a pretty good use of a car. it would be great to have a more comprehensive approach for pricing the least productive vehicle uses out of the most congested areas, but setting up tolls in a few choke points is a good start.

> driving lots of different people around all day

Perhaps academics or NYC can analyze and publish data from Uber/Lyft on average rideshare occupancy by time of day and GPS location, e.g. what percentage of time is spent driving around empty (consuming energy, polluting), carrying a paid passenger, or parked in an area close to expected customers.

Rideshares were capped in 2018. Only EVs are exempt from the limit.

Thanks. Do you know how the limit is enforced?

Uber/Lyft drivers in NYC need special plates (that start with a "T"). The commission that regulates them can simply restrict how many plates it issues/renews.

Unlike in other cities, Uber/Lyft in NYC are regulated like taxis and limos. NYC has been paying a congestion surcharge on each ride since 2019, which was set to go up as part of the new congestion pricing program.

Agree, MTA must go bankrupt and restructure its liabilities, contracts, and overall cost structure to start from clean slate.

Only after thorough and deep cleanup it would gain taxpayer trust and be on a get-well plan to be more sustainable financially.

It would still operate in maintenance mode in the interim, while going through restructuring, NYC has no lack of financial restructuring professionals in downtown

You can’t start from a clean slate with so much legacy infrastructure

You actually can: not the infra of course, but the operating organization.

In Melbourne, Australia, the state-run Public Transport Corporation was an MTA-style mess and the trains in particular were notorious for delays. In 2009, the operating contract was handed over to the company behind the Hong Kong Metro, and punctuality has ratcheted up from the low 80s to the mid-90s; not quite HK-style 99%, but still a marked improvement, all on the same crusty old infra.

https://www.metrotrains.com.au/metro-performance/

Its not about dismantling infrastruture, its about dismantling legal and contractual obstacles that keep MTA a financial disaster and corruption pit

You misunderstand the power of organized labor, the oligopoly of skilled labor able to maintain and adapt the legacy infrastructure and the shocking cost of bespoke manufacturing. I'm on the boards of two Manhattan buildings and see the numbers and can't even imagine what MTA goes through.

It is mafia, originally created by some “Italian families” of NYC.

Time to break these regulatory capture for the public good and benefit of taxpayer, not the organized mob

At least I would love to see the discourse in oublic and honest communication about actual issue and its root causes. Not some bogus “congestion”.

There are actual people with names that have caused the mess

If anybody is reading this, the mafia hasn't been a material force in NYC for decades, rendering this argument full-on racist ranting. sit2021 hasn't a clue.

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