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Comment by therobots927 | Hacker News Reader

It’s pretty incredible that by showing the mice a light and music show, they were able to induce drainage of brain waste. That’s really exciting and I would love it if they could invent a hat to wear at night that accelerated the process while sleeping, effectively multiplying your time spent sleeping by some factor. It could be really effective for people with tough work schedules like doctors, truck drivers and pilots.

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> It could be really effective for people with tough work schedules

If such a thing were invented it would effectively become mandatory, because anybody not willing to use it would be out-competed for work by people who were.

Yes, but early adopters would either move up in socioeconomic status, or develop new horrors beyond comprehension

So modern society and many of its ills.

Either way, sign me up!

Yep, I’ll take more effective sleep any day

This is entirely dependent on how people value free time vs money. The average person in the developed world would probably take the free time over more money. People already hate working 40 hours.

I don't know if that's true. Exercise, meditation, adderall, and spaced repetition learning all improve work performance for knowledge workers and those things are far from universally employed.

There's coffee/caffeine which is available at workplaces for employees who want to consume it.

If there are proven benefits without any known adverse effects, we can expect businesses to take the leap and try to make it available as long its legal, practical and cost effective.

> If such a thing were invented it would effectively become mandatory, because anybody not willing to use it would be out-competed for work by people who were.

I believe this dynamic is already happening to ADHD drugs.

We've been working on this for about 4 years now at AffectableSleep.com - not 40hz, and not light. Phase-targeted auditory stimulation which has more than 10 years of research in humans.

Very cool. I’ll take a look!!

I wonder what people think of the research this is based on https://www.affectablesleep.com/science

Since the site owner is in this thread, FYI there's a minor typo on this page in the 'What does the stimulation sound like?' section; 'illicit' should be 'elicit'.

Thanks so much! Will fix.

There is no information on what do they actually measure in every individual. Without some real-time feedback it seems somewhat not enough basis to deliver the treatment to the intended target. (But if they're hiring...)

P.S. The website design is also imho a bit wacky.

What do you mean "there's no information on what do they actually measure in every individual"? We are measuring slow-waves, the synchronous firing of neurons which defines deep sleep. This is a real-time feedback system, with measured ERPs on a 5-second on, 5-second off stimulation protocol?

Happy to answer any questions, if I'm not understanding your statement correctly.

That's ok. There just seem to be no explicit mentioning of that, that individual differences in real-time will be taken into account, just some textbook style description. Have you considered regulating skeletal muscle tone?

Ok, thanks for the feedback. I thought our "how it works" was pretty clear, but also simple for people to understand. It's a narrow path to wander.

By "regulating skeletal muscle tone" do you mean as an input? Or as a target?

We've mostly focused on neuro, though we did an experiment in Vagal stimulation, but you could never be sure what you were measuring, so we ditched that and focused on the area with the most research.

PTAS (the technical term for the stimulation) has considerable amount of research behind it with impactful results.

Always keen to learn more if there is something in muscle tone you think we should be looking at.

Reduced skeletal muscle tone during sleep is pretty much established. If you find out, that there remains some increased muscle tone which correlates with insomnia or reduces the efficiency of PTAS, you could target it. Though you're already targeting it indirectly via delta waves.

Yes, reduced muscle tone is absolutely established, now I think I know what you're saying. We're often letting the researchers guide the areas they are most interested in. Lot's of interest in Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, and depression. We're interested in looking at insulin response and other metabolic factors.

Very interesting. Do you think this will ever turn into a device that regular people can buy? I've been an insomniac my entire life, and would be very interested in trying something in this space.

Yes, we are building a commercial experience, and I am also a lifelong chronic insomniac, which got me into this space.

HOWEVER, this is not an insomnia device. There are a bunch of "competing" devices that sound similar that promise to help you "fall asleep faster" often 70%+ faster, and looking at all the research they've done, it's BS.

Sorry, I wish I could solve our problem, but this isn't it. However, as far as the getting the benefits of a full night sleep, this does help.

I've been speaking with a lot of insomniacs, and what I often bring up is "do you kinda like it"? We all know we "should" sleep, but I feel a large part of chronic insomnia isn't the "stress" that everyone assumes we have, but just that we enjoy being awake in the middle of the night, pondering, ruminating, etc.

Random fun theory. I wonder if there’s any connection to light shows at EDM concerts inducing specific effects

There might already be something available in the form of binaural beats. Not a hat, but a pair of earphones and a BB app or audio track...

If you haven’t already, try taking melatonin before bed. I found my sleep to decrease in length but I wake more rested.

I feel this will be very subjective of course. The biggest thing I have found I can do for a full rest (not length but quality) is no screens at all after 8pm and no lights except candle light after 930pm, coupled with reading by candle light. Melatonin does help me occasionally but it's hit or miss. Reading instead of watching or listening seems to be the biggest help. I guess different parts of my brain fires during that activity than normal.

> …no lights except candle light after 930pm…

I am imagining a household transforming into Amish roleplay by 9:30 PM.

I’ve achieved a similar-but-less-impactful effect by putting Zwave dimmer switches where I could, and setting the turn-on brightness to be lower during a “wind-down” house mode.

Switching my smart lights to red works pretty well for me, although from the street it definitely looks like something unholy is happening in the apartment.

Or you’re running a brothel!

Yes I intend on getting smart lights. They’re expensive but I’m sure they’re worth it.

> no screens at all after 8pm and no lights except candle light after 930pm

I swear by blue-blocking glasses for this reason, especially when driving at night since the advent of obnoxiously bright LED (but I repeat myself) head and tail lights on every car. These are my current pair, no affiliation: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07CXYT17C/

I have a much darker, cheaper pair that's great for before bedtime, but would be far too dangerous for night driving. I'll have to try these some time and see how they compare.

FYI, candle light probably makes your air worse.

I did the same thing for a while, and found it weirdly hard to replace with electricity. Most options are too bright, almost none are incandescent.

If I try it again I’ll have to build my own battery powered lanterns with ultra-low-wattage incandescent bulbs (don’t want the spiky spectrum of LED for this purpose) to get them dim enough and in a useful form factor.

I could read and get around just fine by two beeswax candles (and after getting used to that, full room lighting seemed insane, it’s so bright) but most things you can buy are at least 5x that bright. Even most plug in night lights are brighter than two beeswax tapers.

I’m looking at getting Philips Hue bulbs. They’re expensive but look promising. I cannot stand the eco friendly bright white lightbulbs these days. Nothing against saving energy it’s just not for me.

Why not just get regular orange led light with a dimmer?

those orange salt lamps have a similar spectrum to candles

I have Kasa Smartbulbs (KL110) for bedside and couch-side lamps. They claim 2700K, and while I don’t have a way to measure that, they feel pretty similar to incandescents. They’re also extremely dimmable, which was my main reason for getting them. At the lowest setting, they claim 10 lumens, which is roughly equivalent to a candle. Two of them in the living room at a low-moderate brightness are plenty for evening relaxation.

Make sure to check if it's legal in your jurisdiction before attempting to go and buy it.

Saying that from personal experience after I returned to Australia from the UK, and popped into a local pharmacist to grab some to try it out. The lady behind the counter and the customer next to her acted like I'd literally asked to buy heroin. (!)

It turns out Melatonin wasn't legal to buy at that time (a few years ago now), though the law has apparently been changed since.

I assume it's national not state based policy - I asked my pharmacist (in NSW) about this a few months back, evidently it's available to people over the age of 55 only.

You can get a prescription from a doctor if you have trouble sleeping. My sleep doctor prescribed me a sublingual suspension instead of the tablets (you measure it with an oral syringe and squirt it under your tongue), and to take it earlier than what is recommended. I do just 1mg, 2 hours before sleep and since starting my sleep has been far, far better than it ever has been in my life.

The sustained release tablets (like ‘Circadan’ or similar branding) I found were not good - I’d wake up groggy and generally didn’t get good sleep. They were just prescribed by a regular GP, and the sleep specialist I saw later on thinks it’s counter productive because they keep releasing longer than you want it to.

Yup, though for a cheaper option you can just buy it online (iherb stocks 3mg and 10mg tablets, f.e.). I have the 'Natrol' brand.

The liquid form sounds like an interesting option. I haven't experimented much with timing - instructions suggest 20-30 minutes prior to bed, which I've been following for my very occasional usage.

My teenage son's paediatrician has no issues with my buying melatonin from iHerb vs the liquid on prescription, as the latter is obscenely expensive and wasn't covered by the PBS last time I checked.

Their 3mg tablets work great for the both of us.

It's so weird to think that a naturally occurring hormone which is safely available in one first world country would be so restricted in another.

It's not so weird to me, I don't know much about melatonin but testosterone (probably the most popular steroid) is also just a natural hormone

I think testosterone should be legalized. There are hundreds of black market websites that sell it to US customers and its usage is actually very common. Better to take the cryptocurrency, scams, counterfeits off the market.

Thyroid hormone is prescription only, and for good reason. Hormone overdose can be dangerous.

Vitamin D3 might also help.

Magnesium as well.

I’m a huge fan of magnesium in tea before bed

I'd like to try this. Recommendations? (My quick search's results were roobios, white tea, etc.) TIA.

Not the parent, but I love some fresh mint tea with honey.

Well I prefer celestial seasonings sleepytime tea and CALM brand magnesium

Yes and:

I take magnesium (Mg) at bed time. I believe it helps reduce muscle cramping, improving my sleep.

TIL There are many compounds avail OTC. The most common Mg-citrate upsets my tummy. After trying a few variataions, I settled on Mg-glycinate, which is also reasonably priced (vs say Mg-orotate).

YMMV. Please consult your doc. Adverse effects, drug interactions, etc.

Best, of course, is a nice hot bath with epsom salt. But that's not always practical.

I need to get back into taking that. Good idea!

Or, you know, fix the issues that prevent you from sleeping instead of messing with hormones. If you really need to sleep, take some GABA. Otherwise, work on it and maybe take magnesium.

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